WEBVTT 00:00:15.707 --> 00:00:16.719 And welcome to the Concealed Carry 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:21.913 Podcast, part of the ConcealedCarry.com network, brought to you by HK. 00:00:22.598 --> 00:00:27.306 Today is Friday, October 16th, 2026, as of the recording of this live episode. 00:00:28.089 --> 00:00:33.140 And I am your host, Riley Bowman, joined today by Jacob Paulson. 00:00:33.558 --> 00:00:34.672 That's me. I'm here. 00:00:35.212 --> 00:00:42.629 He's here. Yeah. Joining remotely, which is great. Always happy to have the 00:00:42.629 --> 00:00:44.750 benefit of technology to make this possible. 00:00:46.648 --> 00:00:51.228 Yes, we would prefer not have audio quality or internet buffering issues, but here you are. 00:00:51.803 --> 00:00:56.369 Yep, yep, yep, yep. It's the way it goes sometimes. Today, we're looking forward 00:00:56.369 --> 00:01:00.539 to sharing with you Justified Saves. This is our monthly segment episode. 00:01:00.539 --> 00:01:05.542 We do defensive gun use stories and break those down, share lessons learned. 00:01:06.669 --> 00:01:10.259 You typically try to do it earlier in the month, but this month got in the way 00:01:10.259 --> 00:01:15.555 of happening. So here we are, and we are glad to be with you. 00:01:16.049 --> 00:01:18.643 Today's episode sponsors are... 00:01:19.910 --> 00:01:24.153 Oh, we lost you there. You're back. Our sponsors today, CCW Safe. 00:01:24.647 --> 00:01:29.558 We're going to do some sponsor message reads in the middle part of the episode. 00:01:29.958 --> 00:01:34.594 We'll get CCW Safe first, but we do want to give you their info and links to 00:01:34.594 --> 00:01:37.360 go check them out if you would do that. CCWsafe.com. 00:01:37.888 --> 00:01:41.975 And also KSG Armory Holsters is our secondary sponsor today. 00:01:43.154 --> 00:01:44.924 KSGarmory.com. 00:01:46.160 --> 00:01:52.116 All righty. So let's go ahead and get right into it, Jacob, our very first stories. 00:01:53.094 --> 00:01:59.554 The first one actually is we're going to touch on the fact that yesterday was 00:01:59.554 --> 00:02:01.484 a terrible incident that happened in Bend, Oregon. 00:02:01.484 --> 00:02:05.144 And we're not going to talk about this one in too great a detail because it's 00:02:05.144 --> 00:02:09.913 too early to really know all the details, especially relevant details. 00:02:10.694 --> 00:02:15.404 But we wanted to acknowledge it, make sure, you know, it just kind of hit right. 00:02:15.404 --> 00:02:18.394 You know we're getting ready to do a justified saves episode anyway and then 00:02:18.394 --> 00:02:23.938 this crazy event happens and by crazy i mean it seems jacob that 00:02:25.993 --> 00:02:31.974 Good samaritans stopping mass shootings is uh becoming more and more prevalent 00:02:31.974 --> 00:02:36.014 or at least in recent history so what do we know so far about this that we're 00:02:36.014 --> 00:02:38.264 able to talk about this time before moving on 00:02:39.814 --> 00:02:44.658 We know that a bad person went into a school and shot some people. We know that, 00:02:46.699 --> 00:02:51.326 at least three of those people have died, and a couple additional students are, 00:02:52.418 --> 00:02:54.234 injured and dealing with stuff. 00:02:54.696 --> 00:02:58.394 We know that the bad guy is dead, that he was shot by somebody else, 00:02:58.940 --> 00:03:03.967 and reports say that this person was a bystander, not a staff member of the school, 00:03:04.547 --> 00:03:10.967 but somebody who saw stuff and followed the shooter into the school. to deal with the threat. 00:03:11.693 --> 00:03:15.218 Beyond that, it starts to get into some speculation at this point, 00:03:15.218 --> 00:03:20.157 like we just, there's some additional details out there but not super confirmed, 00:03:20.778 --> 00:03:22.508 or coming from the police, I don't think. 00:03:24.098 --> 00:03:28.940 Right, right. And so we are very careful to talk about these things too early, 00:03:29.500 --> 00:03:33.845 right after they happen, before there's a whole lot known that's substantiated. 00:03:34.640 --> 00:03:38.060 All that we officially know at this time is a press conference, 00:03:38.900 --> 00:03:43.620 primarily from a press conference that was held last night by the authorities 00:03:43.620 --> 00:03:47.040 there, and basically stating what you just shared with us, Jacob. 00:03:47.040 --> 00:03:49.360 Although, slight correction to what you said, I think you said three people 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:50.575 died. It was three children 00:03:51.016 --> 00:03:53.110 And a teacher. Oh, and an adult. Yeah. 00:03:53.499 --> 00:04:00.030 So we got four total innocent victims, unfortunately, killed two wounded in 00:04:00.030 --> 00:04:01.702 critical condition in the hospital. 00:04:02.201 --> 00:04:06.775 But yeah, got to chalk this one up. No matter how it shakes out, 00:04:06.926 --> 00:04:12.476 the details, again, will be coming forth in days and weeks after this. 00:04:13.283 --> 00:04:18.140 But it seems pretty much clear at this time because they acknowledged it in 00:04:18.140 --> 00:04:23.290 the press conference last night uh that it was a good samaritan bystander that 00:04:23.290 --> 00:04:27.006 put an end to this we got to chuck that one up for a win in the 00:04:28.085 --> 00:04:34.200 uh you know good samaritan concealed carriers putting a stop to a violent event 00:04:34.200 --> 00:04:37.594 that should never happen but unfortunately that's the world we are in 00:04:38.302 --> 00:04:42.150 and i know what i would like to be able to do and that is defend myself my loved 00:04:42.150 --> 00:04:45.535 ones, my community, etc. Anyway. Yeah. 00:04:48.599 --> 00:04:52.307 So we'll come back to that in a future episode. We'll talk about it in greater depth. 00:04:52.900 --> 00:04:57.484 Let's get into our what not to do. So we've got a couple stories here with some 00:04:57.484 --> 00:04:59.111 big time lessons learned. 00:04:59.586 --> 00:05:03.858 First one is out of Marana, Marana, I don't know, Arizona. 00:05:04.619 --> 00:05:06.804 It's reported on a couple of 00:05:06.804 --> 00:05:11.167 sources. I think our primary source today is from the Arizona Daily Star. 00:05:12.544 --> 00:05:18.342 This started off as a road rage incident. I guess it is a road rage incident. 00:05:19.032 --> 00:05:24.350 And uh you want to take the details on this one jacob tell us how it went down 00:05:25.197 --> 00:05:29.964 Two drivers are angry with themselves at each other um unclear why do we ever 00:05:29.964 --> 00:05:34.664 really know i don't know that we ever really know anyway some some some drivers 00:05:34.664 --> 00:05:39.733 are upset with each other okay uh they're on interstate 10 so this is not on some you know, 00:05:40.354 --> 00:05:43.512 small in neighborhood road they're on the interstate, 00:05:44.313 --> 00:05:45.884 and at some point, 00:05:46.724 --> 00:05:49.894 they get off an off-ramp near Ina Road. 00:05:49.894 --> 00:05:52.289 I don't know. People who are from there, I guess, might know what that is. 00:05:55.844 --> 00:05:59.944 One of them, the guy who's in the front of the two cars, he gets out of his 00:05:59.944 --> 00:06:06.330 vehicle and he comes to the rear vehicle, presumably to make a fuss, 00:06:07.247 --> 00:06:09.982 and the guy in the rear vehicle shoots him. 00:06:11.424 --> 00:06:15.414 Now, that's for sure I don't think that's disputed There are some things that 00:06:15.414 --> 00:06:20.291 are disputed It's worth noting That the shooter, 00:06:21.337 --> 00:06:25.772 He has dash cams, at least one. 00:06:26.347 --> 00:06:30.863 And so from that camera recording, we can't see the shooting, 00:06:31.397 --> 00:06:35.170 but we do have a sense for the time of this. 00:06:35.612 --> 00:06:42.815 So we know it was relatively immediately after the person being shot, 00:06:42.815 --> 00:06:44.638 the shawty, I don't think that's a word. 00:06:45.475 --> 00:06:46.896 It's pretty much immediately. 00:06:48.214 --> 00:06:53.886 I don't want to call him the victim because sometimes, you know painting these things affect i, 00:06:54.896 --> 00:06:58.825 a little tangent here but i think sometimes we do a disservice when we try and 00:06:58.825 --> 00:07:05.445 fit all these dgus into the hero victim story like the hero villain story right 00:07:05.445 --> 00:07:06.672 who's the good guy who's the bad guy, 00:07:07.316 --> 00:07:13.595 and and sometimes we do that unintentionally sometimes it just it's it just 00:07:13.595 --> 00:07:16.006 seems true and so we kind of jump to that conclusion, 00:07:16.703 --> 00:07:22.067 But this seems to be one of those where you're probably not – there's not a clear good guy, bad guy. 00:07:22.415 --> 00:07:24.958 But anyway, what I was trying to say is when the guy who gets shot, 00:07:25.207 --> 00:07:29.315 the timing is such from the recording we have that about the same time he gets 00:07:29.315 --> 00:07:31.703 to the car, the guy in the car shoots him. 00:07:32.266 --> 00:07:37.165 So there doesn't seem to be a lot of kind of confrontation taking place at that 00:07:37.165 --> 00:07:39.017 car before the shot is fired. 00:07:39.673 --> 00:07:46.265 Now, what also is disputed is that the shooter, he claims that the person he 00:07:46.265 --> 00:07:51.539 shot was trying to open his door in the moment he shot his gun. 00:07:54.074 --> 00:07:54.455 Let's see. 00:07:58.075 --> 00:08:02.015 The man struck his car with his hands, and then he tried to open the door, 00:08:02.015 --> 00:08:03.536 and he fired in self-defense. 00:08:04.326 --> 00:08:08.784 But the wounded man, the man who got shot, denied ever trying to enter the vehicle. 00:08:09.411 --> 00:08:12.625 So, you know, there's a dispute over whether or not someone did or didn't try 00:08:12.625 --> 00:08:14.769 and open the door to get into the car. 00:08:15.915 --> 00:08:18.560 But, you know, shot shot was fired for sure. 00:08:21.067 --> 00:08:27.306 The only good news out of this whole thing is that the guy that got shot appears 00:08:27.306 --> 00:08:30.222 to, you know, have made and or is making a full recovery. 00:08:31.236 --> 00:08:34.407 It could have been, you know, worse than that he's dead, right? 00:08:34.837 --> 00:08:37.141 So that's like a little bit of good news here. 00:08:37.976 --> 00:08:46.756 Certainly impacts the shooter's case as far as, you know, whether he sees 5, 00:08:47.356 --> 00:08:50.423 10, or 15 years in prison versus, you know, life. 00:08:51.776 --> 00:08:52.216 Because 00:08:52.216 --> 00:08:53.316 He has been arrested he's been. 00:08:53.316 --> 00:08:59.766 Charged and it's pretty clear investigators have stated that they consider the 00:08:59.766 --> 00:09:01.399 force he used unreasonable 00:09:02.836 --> 00:09:06.736 and I think that's a pretty good as far as what we know and we're just reading 00:09:06.736 --> 00:09:11.494 the story here of course we don't always have the same level of detail as investigators 00:09:12.416 --> 00:09:13.990 or as much detail as we would like to have 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:19.966 but basically angry man he may have been in the wrong in the first place He 00:09:19.966 --> 00:09:24.718 may have committed some grave injustice on the road with how he was driving 00:09:25.049 --> 00:09:30.386 and the threatening manner and how he uses vehicle aggressively or whatever it is. 00:09:30.386 --> 00:09:34.926 But angry man approaches your vehicle and tries to get in is very different 00:09:34.926 --> 00:09:36.705 than angry man getting in your vehicle. 00:09:36.902 --> 00:09:41.018 And it's very different than angry man getting into your vehicle and or has a weapon. 00:09:41.916 --> 00:09:46.936 So angry man trying to get inside your vehicle and then you shoot them is rarely 00:09:46.936 --> 00:09:48.855 going to work out well for you. 00:09:49.621 --> 00:09:52.110 If you're that shooter or defender. 00:09:52.395 --> 00:09:55.500 Yeah, so I do have some comments on this because –. 00:09:57.636 --> 00:10:02.651 There's just some, there's some tactical things here. Like, why didn't you just lock the car? 00:10:03.702 --> 00:10:05.683 Like, that's the first thing. Now, some of you might be like, 00:10:05.683 --> 00:10:08.173 well, hey, when I stop my car, when I come to a complete stop, 00:10:08.173 --> 00:10:11.556 put the car in park, the doors unlock automatically. 00:10:11.690 --> 00:10:14.586 A lot of cars do that. And that's the kind of thing you might be able to reprogram, 00:10:15.132 --> 00:10:19.370 if that's you. But just to some degree, it's like, why is the car unlocked? 00:10:19.811 --> 00:10:21.833 If you're really concerned for your life, like, oh, my gosh, 00:10:21.833 --> 00:10:25.436 this guy's going to hurt me, you'd think you'd lock your doors. 00:10:26.243 --> 00:10:33.058 So that's a kind of a red flag. I think it's a concern that speaks to the situation. 00:10:33.772 --> 00:10:38.173 Now, whether or not you remembered or didn't remember or were successful or 00:10:38.173 --> 00:10:45.939 were not successful in locking your doors should not impact directly the argument of self-defense. 00:10:46.630 --> 00:10:52.103 Right if this guy really did unlock like open your car door um then that you 00:10:52.403 --> 00:10:55.763 know that there's a there's a viable potential argument for self-defense i think 00:10:55.763 --> 00:10:59.503 you could you could reasonably argue self-defense i don't know if you'll win but, 00:11:00.438 --> 00:11:06.074 um yeah i think it's a potential argument at least i'm assuming this recording on his dash cam has audio, 00:11:07.061 --> 00:11:11.473 because otherwise watching it you wouldn't know when the gunshot was and it 00:11:11.473 --> 00:11:13.365 implies that the recording, 00:11:14.259 --> 00:11:18.093 makes the clears up the timing about when the gunshot was so i assume it has 00:11:18.093 --> 00:11:24.023 audio if it has audio we should be able to maybe detect the sound of the car door opening. 00:11:25.603 --> 00:11:30.473 Maybe not somebody maybe reaching for the door handle but someone actually like 00:11:30.473 --> 00:11:34.783 opening the door that that i think would be detectable so anyway i know those 00:11:34.783 --> 00:11:36.336 are There's some hair-splitting things. 00:11:36.649 --> 00:11:41.276 The other thing I was going to comment on is this paragraph in the news story. 00:11:42.083 --> 00:11:47.057 It says, investigators concluded that Pace's use of force was unreasonable, 00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:50.028 citing the man being unarmed, 00:11:50.655 --> 00:11:55.123 the lack of a clear warning shot – or excuse me, the lack of a clear warning 00:11:55.123 --> 00:11:59.154 before the shot, and room for Pace to drive away. 00:12:01.166 --> 00:12:05.929 Now, I think all three of those are interesting in a legal discussion. 00:12:07.026 --> 00:12:10.538 I want to go in reverse order. It says room for pace to drive away. 00:12:10.811 --> 00:12:14.106 I would say that's relevant tactically. If you could have driven away, 00:12:14.106 --> 00:12:15.444 what the crap are we doing? 00:12:15.978 --> 00:12:19.060 We got our gun out. We're waiting for this guy to come back to the car. 00:12:19.310 --> 00:12:21.716 Maybe we do. Maybe we don't think he's trying to open the door, 00:12:21.716 --> 00:12:23.124 so we shoot him through the glass. 00:12:23.814 --> 00:12:28.453 This is wild if the whole time you could have been like, put it in drive, drive off. 00:12:29.626 --> 00:12:33.323 So it speaks to they're not being two good guys in this confrontation to some 00:12:33.660 --> 00:12:36.533 degree, though Arizona is a stand-your-ground state. 00:12:36.818 --> 00:12:40.597 So even if you have a safe means of retreat, you don't have to take it. 00:12:41.038 --> 00:12:47.856 So I think that would be a difficult element to totally use to charge someone 00:12:47.856 --> 00:12:50.946 or to disprove self-defense. 00:12:51.340 --> 00:12:54.166 And then it says the lack of a clear warning. I think that's interesting too. 00:12:54.166 --> 00:12:57.536 Like there's nowhere in the law in Arizona or anywhere else that I know of where 00:12:57.536 --> 00:13:00.616 you have some requirement to warn someone like, dude, I got this gun. 00:13:00.616 --> 00:13:04.566 And if you open that door, I'm going to shoot you. Like that's not a thing. 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:09.076 Now, it is the kind of thing a reasonable person who's in fear of their life 00:13:09.076 --> 00:13:11.228 would do if they have an opportunity. 00:13:11.652 --> 00:13:14.756 So I'm not saying it's not wise. I'm not saying it doesn't speak to a state 00:13:14.756 --> 00:13:16.668 of mind, which could be relevant. 00:13:17.376 --> 00:13:19.564 But there's no legal requirement. 00:13:19.796 --> 00:13:24.246 I see some of that case that they're trying to make. Again, with things that 00:13:24.246 --> 00:13:29.619 aren't really legal requirements, I think is probably more geared around the fact that, 00:13:30.721 --> 00:13:34.666 again, as far as the facts we know is angry man approaches car, 00:13:34.666 --> 00:13:36.656 tries to open door of said car. 00:13:36.656 --> 00:13:39.816 It doesn't actually say he actually opens the door, just attempts to do it, 00:13:39.816 --> 00:13:44.056 maybe bangs on the window or the door, but is otherwise unarmed, right? 00:13:44.056 --> 00:13:48.416 And I think it's sort of, hey, you got an unarmed man that's just cussing at 00:13:48.416 --> 00:13:54.021 you, banging on your window, and I think it's just, hey... 00:13:55.647 --> 00:13:58.753 You just shot an unarmed dude. What's the justification here? 00:13:59.118 --> 00:14:02.729 You didn't warn him like, hey, man, I'm armed. If you come any closer, 00:14:03.042 --> 00:14:06.364 again, not that it's required, but like, you know, I just think that they're 00:14:06.364 --> 00:14:08.615 trying to paint a picture here of, 00:14:10.834 --> 00:14:12.516 I guess, of intent, I suppose. 00:14:13.306 --> 00:14:16.634 Well, I think it speaks to elements. It speaks to an element of eminence. 00:14:16.634 --> 00:14:22.394 It speaks to an element of proportionality, right? Like, do we have a similar degree of force? Right. 00:14:23.197 --> 00:14:28.602 So it speaks to some of those requirements, though they themselves are not requirements. 00:14:28.933 --> 00:14:32.845 And I think this is how some myths get started when people read news stories like this. Yeah. 00:14:33.466 --> 00:14:36.234 Oh, it looks like I have to warn people according to this news story. 00:14:36.234 --> 00:14:39.562 Right, right, right, right. Totally. Yeah. Very, very valid points. 00:14:39.875 --> 00:14:43.534 I would add that my final take on this before we probably move on to the next 00:14:43.534 --> 00:14:49.374 story is that a lot of like one of the reasons why we talk a lot about legal 00:14:49.694 --> 00:14:52.534 stuff, legal requirements, ramifications. 00:14:52.534 --> 00:14:58.827 Versus tactical ones is a lot of times by choosing the tactically sound approach 00:14:59.164 --> 00:15:03.785 often keeps you out of legal, you know, trouble, right? 00:15:04.104 --> 00:15:08.164 And so, you know, whether it's a requirement or not by, you know, 00:15:08.164 --> 00:15:11.964 if this guy had simply done what was probably tactically wise, 00:15:12.254 --> 00:15:16.718 he likely would not have pulled the trigger and landed himself in jail. 00:15:19.412 --> 00:15:20.323 So anyway. Yeah. 00:15:20.567 --> 00:15:24.299 I mean, I think that's the bingo here. 00:15:24.595 --> 00:15:30.294 Like, his actions do not seem reasonable to me. They do not sound prudent to 00:15:30.294 --> 00:15:34.054 me. And I think they don't sound particularly moral or ethical either. 00:15:34.374 --> 00:15:39.195 Yeah, yeah. And I think what this looks like to me is somebody who... 00:15:40.724 --> 00:15:45.496 Either had ill intent which is a serious problem very serious problem legally, 00:15:45.989 --> 00:15:51.881 um or maybe maybe they didn't have ill intent but they were like what i would call, 00:15:52.848 --> 00:15:56.998 uh like a gun happy concealed carrier right it's like i got a gun because there's 00:15:56.998 --> 00:16:00.198 so many crazies out there trying to kill me these days and oh here's one of 00:16:00.198 --> 00:16:03.259 those crazies i better get ready to shoot him oh yep time to shoot. 00:16:03.909 --> 00:16:05.398 Right right it's like whoa whoa 00:16:05.398 --> 00:16:10.378 Whoa like we jumped so high up in the force continuum really fast because we 00:16:10.378 --> 00:16:14.928 had this like pre-established perception of how these things go and we let that 00:16:14.928 --> 00:16:18.126 play out in our own head even though it wasn't really happening in reality. 00:16:18.573 --> 00:16:23.028 Yeah sort of this attitude of i've got a gun and it's my defensive tool and 00:16:23.028 --> 00:16:26.926 it's kind of my only defensive tool and so when something is 00:16:28.607 --> 00:16:32.917 You know, when something is a difficult situation for me, what do I do? 00:16:32.917 --> 00:16:37.189 I just use the gun, you know, like just decision-making is a big part of this. 00:16:37.445 --> 00:16:43.400 And a lot of the decision-making actually happens before you're ever in a difficult, 00:16:43.579 --> 00:16:47.138 uncomfortable, violent encounter in the first place. 00:16:47.689 --> 00:16:51.497 Just thinking rationally. Because the problem is, and I think this is probably 00:16:51.497 --> 00:16:53.965 true of a lot of these kinds of road rage incidents especially, 00:16:54.255 --> 00:16:57.146 is emotions are already elevated. 00:16:57.877 --> 00:17:01.952 Because people are upset, frustrated, scared, angry, 00:17:02.382 --> 00:17:06.937 whatever it is, you know, because somebody has wronged you in some way on the 00:17:06.937 --> 00:17:13.777 road and, uh, you, you know, your elevate, your emotions are already up here and we have to be 00:17:14.247 --> 00:17:19.466 able to pull ourselves away from that step back and make good decisions. 00:17:20.203 --> 00:17:24.487 Like decision-making is a big piece of this. And a lot of people just seem to 00:17:24.487 --> 00:17:25.416 struggle in that regard. 00:17:26.207 --> 00:17:31.177 I'm speaking to these road rage type incidents because we see this unfortunately 00:17:31.177 --> 00:17:33.729 happen way too commonly. 00:17:34.042 --> 00:17:37.396 This is the kind of crap that gives concealed carriers a bad name, 00:17:37.623 --> 00:17:40.183 right? That make the crazies want to take our guns away. 00:17:42.247 --> 00:17:48.408 On the flip side of that, we've got a hero out of Oregon that just stopped a mass shooting, right? 00:17:49.547 --> 00:17:52.877 That's the kind of thing that we want to see happen. We don't want to see those 00:17:52.877 --> 00:17:56.907 shootings happen, but when violence happens, we want to see good, 00:17:56.907 --> 00:18:02.097 sound, moral, sane, good decision-making people do the right things, 00:18:02.097 --> 00:18:03.443 not road rage shootings. 00:18:05.163 --> 00:18:06.550 Yep. Bingo. 00:18:07.030 --> 00:18:13.340 Next story out of Memphis, Tennessee. There's a couple of sources on this, 00:18:13.340 --> 00:18:17.051 but we're going to take a look at one here from actionnews5.com. 00:18:17.637 --> 00:18:22.720 This one's pretty interesting, Jacob. I like this story for its elements of, 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:24.371 you know, like lessons learned from this. 00:18:24.876 --> 00:18:27.900 It's a lot of detail. This is a pretty detailed one, yeah. 00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:32.492 Right, right. Like there's pretty good detail. And I'm going to cut to the chase on this one. 00:18:33.190 --> 00:18:40.210 The man is not from what I read is not being investigated for his actual use 00:18:40.210 --> 00:18:43.010 of force in the incident. It's more of 00:18:44.374 --> 00:18:49.465 his lack of prudent use of that force, meaning in some cases, 00:18:49.465 --> 00:18:52.170 poor marksmanship. So let's talk about that a little bit. 00:18:52.675 --> 00:18:55.975 So there's a gentleman here near Memphis, Tennessee. 00:18:56.855 --> 00:19:00.605 He, you know, is able to detect, I think he's got a camera or something. 00:19:00.605 --> 00:19:03.484 Security cameras alerted him to movement outside his home. 00:19:04.041 --> 00:19:08.714 He goes outside. This happened about 4.40 a.m., so it's early, early in the morning. 00:19:09.156 --> 00:19:12.877 He goes outside because his cameras went off. And I guess, you know, 00:19:13.080 --> 00:19:17.404 if it was me, I don't know if my camera buzzing my phone would wake me up at four in the morning. 00:19:18.124 --> 00:19:21.975 So this guy's on top of it. But camera goes off, alerts, you know, 00:19:21.975 --> 00:19:25.259 come in or whatever to his security system. 00:19:25.624 --> 00:19:31.365 He goes outside and finds a team, it says, in his driveway next to his Jeep. 00:19:31.673 --> 00:19:36.085 Okay. And along, and there's an occupied red sedan. So presumably their getaway 00:19:36.085 --> 00:19:40.600 vehicle, right, is sitting there probably with a getaway driver. Right. 00:19:41.034 --> 00:19:44.633 But there's this teenager standing next to his Jeep. They're obviously up to no good. 00:19:45.494 --> 00:19:50.985 So he says when this man confronted him, the teen, that is, so this man goes 00:19:50.985 --> 00:19:54.465 outside, confronts the teen. The teen allegedly extended his arm. 00:19:54.465 --> 00:19:57.725 This is quoting from the article, indicated he had a weapon. 00:19:58.049 --> 00:20:01.995 So how that is, I don't know. But he basically extends his arm, 00:20:01.995 --> 00:20:03.866 says he's armed or whatever it is. 00:20:04.499 --> 00:20:08.365 And he tells the homeowner to get back inside. Okay. 00:20:09.178 --> 00:20:12.985 And so at this point, the homeowner fears for his life. That seems pretty reasonable 00:20:12.985 --> 00:20:17.553 based on the little bit of detail we got about the presumed weapon. Right, Jacob? 00:20:18.495 --> 00:20:24.213 He says he feared for his life and fired several shots. One of those shots struck the teen in the chest. 00:20:24.666 --> 00:20:27.510 All right. Who then jumps in the getaway car and flees. 00:20:28.468 --> 00:20:33.115 So, okay, that part of the, like, if the story ended there, it'd be like, 00:20:33.470 --> 00:20:37.922 all right, cool, justified use of force, this fits the category. 00:20:38.437 --> 00:20:40.247 That could have been completely avoided, but yeah. 00:20:40.247 --> 00:20:44.397 Yes, right. We could have talked about it from a, hey, did you need to go outside? 00:20:44.397 --> 00:20:46.223 Did you need to put yourself in that position? 00:20:46.531 --> 00:20:50.757 No, but he didn't do anything wrong or illegal. 00:20:51.197 --> 00:20:54.849 He just maybe made some tactical errors, right? But here's the bigger problem. 00:20:55.383 --> 00:21:00.157 He's facing charges because shortly after, a homeowner called police saying 00:21:00.157 --> 00:21:04.487 someone banged on his door, pleading for help, saying he'd been shot. 00:21:04.487 --> 00:21:09.443 Now, this is actually the teenager that's run, like he escaped, he fled in the car. 00:21:10.637 --> 00:21:14.517 They make it as far as a street over, and now this teen realizes, 00:21:15.297 --> 00:21:17.640 I'm dying or in very, very serious trouble. 00:21:18.121 --> 00:21:22.977 Bangs on the door, asks for help. They call 911. They find that teenager collapsed 00:21:22.977 --> 00:21:26.788 in the driveway from that shot that had struck him in the chest. 00:21:27.183 --> 00:21:31.667 And then a few minutes later, investigators are, you know, they arrive on the 00:21:31.667 --> 00:21:33.051 scene. Police are on the scene. 00:21:33.353 --> 00:21:38.351 And they find several stray rounds had pierced a neighboring home, 00:21:39.146 --> 00:21:44.144 okay, where a father told police that four children were asleep in that home 00:21:44.539 --> 00:21:47.497 when a bullet tore through the walls. 00:21:47.497 --> 00:21:53.026 And like went right there near, it said it woke one child with falling debris. 00:21:53.862 --> 00:21:58.807 Okay, so a bullet flies through this person's house near four children who are asleep. 00:21:59.115 --> 00:22:03.367 One of those is awakened and is at least awakened suddenly enough to like witness 00:22:03.367 --> 00:22:07.138 debris because of that bullet piercing walls and stuff. 00:22:07.602 --> 00:22:11.538 Okay, and then it also says a neighbor's car was hit twice. 00:22:13.075 --> 00:22:17.591 So, here's what is going on is this gentleman who, 00:22:18.242 --> 00:22:24.778 presumably, again, used lawful, justified force to defend himself against an armed 00:22:25.823 --> 00:22:30.783 teenager in his driveway, but in his panic, I guess, of firing off a bunch of 00:22:30.783 --> 00:22:35.295 rounds, it sounds like he only gets one on that target and the rest go elsewhere, 00:22:35.887 --> 00:22:37.153 and this is a problem for him. 00:22:37.153 --> 00:22:39.992 He's being charged with aggravated assault. 00:22:40.502 --> 00:22:44.353 That might be a little bit, it wouldn't surprise me to see this get taken down 00:22:44.353 --> 00:22:46.046 or at least at the very least pleaded down. 00:22:47.083 --> 00:22:51.113 But he's facing aggravated assault charges, not because of the teenager he shot, 00:22:51.113 --> 00:22:53.680 but because of these stray bullets that put others at risk. 00:22:54.603 --> 00:22:56.203 Yeah. Yeah. 00:22:58.696 --> 00:23:02.478 And it's not clear to me either if the 14-year-old who was shot survived or 00:23:02.478 --> 00:23:06.591 not. The news story I read just said that he'd been rushed to the hospital in critical condition. 00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:13.586 Because this will impact how the other charges can be plead out or how those kinds of things go. 00:23:16.978 --> 00:23:21.156 We've seen lesser incidents turn into bigger media mob stories. 00:23:21.661 --> 00:23:28.167 So my point is that this guy has some serious tactical issues. 00:23:29.178 --> 00:23:30.965 I don't know why we're going out and confronting people. 00:23:34.438 --> 00:23:38.268 If you think someone's pointing a gun at you, like the new shooting seems relatively 00:23:38.268 --> 00:23:44.108 reasonable potentially, but firing off nine rounds, nine rounds is a lot of 00:23:44.108 --> 00:23:46.766 rounds, and only one of those impacting your target. 00:23:48.518 --> 00:23:50.298 That's not good marksmanship. 00:23:50.298 --> 00:23:52.705 That's not prudent pistol skills. 00:23:53.343 --> 00:23:58.068 And for at least three of those, one of those rounds to go into someone's house 00:23:58.068 --> 00:24:03.178 and knock some debris down on a kid who's asleep in bed is pretty sobering. 00:24:03.658 --> 00:24:06.198 I think that would hit me. I think I'd be like, oh, geez, I did what? 00:24:06.198 --> 00:24:09.353 You know, like that would just seem really heavy as a burden. 00:24:10.450 --> 00:24:13.418 And it's not the only story we're going to review today where errant rounds 00:24:13.418 --> 00:24:16.285 kind of go flying off to places where they shouldn't go. 00:24:16.940 --> 00:24:18.768 And this is the kind of thing that I think we don't think about. 00:24:18.768 --> 00:24:22.478 I think that we just – I think people who are in this community who may be listening 00:24:22.478 --> 00:24:26.428 to this podcast, we just don't think about this element, right? 00:24:26.428 --> 00:24:32.432 Like that you might be forced to defend yourself, but that you might hurt someone else in the process. 00:24:33.198 --> 00:24:36.838 Like that's pretty sobering. And your neighborhood, a place where we review 00:24:36.838 --> 00:24:40.798 a lot of DGUs, a lot of these justified save stories, is a place where there's 00:24:40.798 --> 00:24:42.277 probably a bunch of innocent people. 00:24:42.678 --> 00:24:44.553 So your risk is inherently higher. 00:24:45.180 --> 00:24:51.638 And just the fact that he fired nine shots to me suggests that it was kind of 00:24:51.638 --> 00:24:56.604 a spray and fire kind of scenario. We're just sending bullets that way. 00:24:57.558 --> 00:25:03.268 I could be wrong. Maybe they were all very aimed shots and just happened to miss. But –. 00:25:04.550 --> 00:25:09.002 This could be on video because the guy was alerted by his security system. 00:25:09.386 --> 00:25:10.849 So I'd love to see the video of this one. 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:17.181 It's highly concerning to me. I'll add that this one little quick detail. 00:25:17.618 --> 00:25:22.399 We don't know if the teenager who extended his hand said something about a weapon 00:25:22.399 --> 00:25:25.360 and told the homeowner to get back inside. We don't know if he had a gun or not. 00:25:26.120 --> 00:25:29.059 Now, in a legal perspective, it doesn't really matter. 00:25:29.059 --> 00:25:32.489 What matters is if it was reasonable to think he had a gun. 00:25:32.489 --> 00:25:36.261 And based on the story we have, I'd say it was probably reasonable, 00:25:36.923 --> 00:25:41.909 but from an ethical and moral and now justifying that you might have hurt somebody 00:25:41.909 --> 00:25:46.897 else's perspective, I think you'd want to have a decent degree of confidence, 00:25:48.714 --> 00:25:50.978 before you start firing off nine rounds. 00:25:52.029 --> 00:25:53.898 Yeah, you know, yeah. 00:25:56.255 --> 00:26:01.289 Yeah, I'm going to go back to just real quick, again, the whole aggravated assault 00:26:01.289 --> 00:26:05.709 charge, I think, here is what's, I think, a little bit unfortunate for this 00:26:05.709 --> 00:26:11.098 man, because I think that is a high, high, high bar, considering the circumstances of the incident. 00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:14.859 I think it's more like a reckless endangerment. And actually, 00:26:14.859 --> 00:26:19.229 another story that's linked to this incident, there's a local attorney that 00:26:19.229 --> 00:26:21.818 talks about the very thing. He's like, this is more like a reckless endangerment thing. 00:26:22.126 --> 00:26:25.699 But that's the thing. That's what I want to communicate to you all about this 00:26:25.699 --> 00:26:31.439 is understanding if you were to be in a similar situation where it could be 00:26:31.439 --> 00:26:34.659 determined that you recklessly fired in the direction of a threat. 00:26:34.944 --> 00:26:37.887 It's not that you weren't justified in shooting or dealing with that threat. 00:26:38.177 --> 00:26:42.859 It's the fact that you recklessly fired. I think that is not an unreasonable 00:26:42.859 --> 00:26:45.619 thing to potentially throw at somebody. 00:26:45.979 --> 00:26:50.719 Because just like the same thing could happen to a law enforcement officer who 00:26:50.719 --> 00:26:56.614 was reckless in their use of force, like we had a situation here in Denver where a Denver cop, 00:26:57.641 --> 00:27:07.823 kind of a crowded situation, had a true deadly force threat that required that level of defense used, 00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:15.349 but was reckless in their use of their defensive gun that they ended up striking. 00:27:15.349 --> 00:27:19.832 Striking numerous other people present who have nothing to do with the encounter. 00:27:20.291 --> 00:27:25.173 And yeah, they, they got themselves slapped with something very similar, if I recall. 00:27:25.562 --> 00:27:30.019 And at the very least, a pretty steep lawsuit. This is, this is real, 00:27:30.019 --> 00:27:33.044 this is real stuff, folks. This is why we talk about training. 00:27:34.258 --> 00:27:39.956 If you have a threat and you decide that, hey, this is my time to use deadly 00:27:39.956 --> 00:27:41.450 force in defense of that threat, 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:47.056 as long as you've made that right call, you still have a responsibility to be 00:27:47.056 --> 00:27:50.245 prudent in how you deal with that threat. 00:27:50.494 --> 00:27:55.406 That you're not recklessly, and again, that's I think the real key here, 00:27:55.406 --> 00:28:00.606 recklessly putting others, other innocents in danger through your use of lawful 00:28:00.606 --> 00:28:02.662 force in defense of that threat. 00:28:03.466 --> 00:28:07.671 So just something to consider here, that training is important. Practice is important. 00:28:07.857 --> 00:28:13.636 Being familiar with your equipment, being able to draw and aim and fire appropriately 00:28:13.636 --> 00:28:15.566 are all relevant skills. 00:28:15.926 --> 00:28:19.536 We don't just carry a gun because it's, you know, this magical talisman that 00:28:19.536 --> 00:28:23.416 protects us. And then we get to go all, you know, Yosemite Sam on people when 00:28:23.416 --> 00:28:25.299 they point a gun or a weapon at us. 00:28:25.898 --> 00:28:30.396 Yeah. And though we've said it a thousand times, avoidance too. 00:28:30.396 --> 00:28:32.962 Yes. It just didn't need to happen. at all. 00:28:33.334 --> 00:28:37.246 Yeah exactly and that goes right back to that first story like if you used good 00:28:37.246 --> 00:28:43.226 tactics in this situation you would not be in hot water because likely wouldn't you know 00:28:44.606 --> 00:28:48.406 I'll put it in the middle i'll say that you could go outside to confront this 00:28:48.406 --> 00:28:50.459 person and still use better tactics, 00:28:51.596 --> 00:28:55.346 um you know absolutely what are we positioning what are we using for cover can 00:28:55.346 --> 00:28:59.506 we shout from a distance you know i don't know i think the average home in america, 00:29:00.126 --> 00:29:04.016 we could figure out how you could confront someone in your driveway and still 00:29:04.016 --> 00:29:06.962 use your house or something else as a legitimate piece of cover, 00:29:08.006 --> 00:29:11.444 such that you wouldn't feel like you have to spray nine bullets in their direction 00:29:11.850 --> 00:29:14.950 when they seem to manifest a weapon. 00:29:18.558 --> 00:29:22.604 Well, those were the two stories in our What Not To Do segment today. 00:29:22.900 --> 00:29:27.227 I liked what you said a moment ago, Jacob, with the first story about how it's 00:29:27.227 --> 00:29:32.351 not always black and white, you know, good guy versus bad guy, hero versus anti-hero. 00:29:32.734 --> 00:29:36.304 Like sometimes things are kind of more gray and in the middle, 00:29:36.571 --> 00:29:39.770