Riley Bowman: And welcome to the Concealed Carry
Riley Bowman: Podcast, part of the ConcealedCarry.com network, brought to you by HK.
Riley Bowman: Today is Friday, August 7th, 2026, as of the recording of this live episode.
Riley Bowman: I am your host, Riley Bowman, joined today by...
Jacob Paulsen: Jacob Paulson.
Riley Bowman: There's the man himself. We are glad to be with you for a Justified Saves episode
Riley Bowman: today. We've got a bunch of great stories.
Riley Bowman: Probably the most notable one is there's a great example of a justified save
Riley Bowman: just this past weekend in Twin Falls, Idaho.
Jacob Paulsen: It's going viral amongst the gun folk.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, that's true. That's a good point. There's been mainstream reporting on
Riley Bowman: it, but not nearly as widespread as what it is amongst the more conservative
Riley Bowman: channels and gun channels.
Jacob Paulsen: Yes, it's hot to trot.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, yeah. So we intend to share some of our thoughts and our take on the In-N-Out,
Riley Bowman: burger shooting there in Idaho this past Saturday, just a little less than a week ago.
Jacob Paulsen: Well, a spoiler. In-N-Out is overrated.
Riley Bowman: I don't disagree. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I appreciate the...
Riley Bowman: I appreciate the business and
Riley Bowman: the business model and what they've done to create such a cult following.
Riley Bowman: And I think they're a pretty cool company. I mean, every In-N-Out location is
Riley Bowman: owned by In-N-Out. It's not a franchise.
Riley Bowman: The family behind the business is particularly the, I think she's the inheritance CEO of the company.
Riley Bowman: Seems like a pretty cool lady. I read an interview with her a while back that,
Riley Bowman: I had some appreciation. They have some good values, family values,
Riley Bowman: Christian values. They're good folks.
Riley Bowman: But the burger itself, I agree. Overrated.
Jacob Paulsen: It's just, I mean, good. We're going to get. Props to them for doing good business
Jacob Paulsen: marketing things. Yeah. But I think I'd rather go to a McDonald's.
Jacob Paulsen: I hope that's not too strong of an insult.
Riley Bowman: That's a little strong, I think.
Jacob Paulsen: But I mean it. I'm honest. I would rather go to a McDonald's than In-N-Out.
Jacob Paulsen: I'd rather go to Burger King. Sorry, is it getting too strong?
Jacob Paulsen: Sorry. Sorry to interrupt. I just thought, you know, a little spoiler before
Jacob Paulsen: we get to the important things.
Riley Bowman: Hey, I appreciate a good burger and fries, and I don't have anything against
Riley Bowman: In-N-Out. I've had it a number of times.
Riley Bowman: Animal style is definitely the way to go. Like, yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: Put it on the menu. Yeah.
Riley Bowman: But there are a lot of places I would rather...
Riley Bowman: Eat than In-N-Out for a burger and fries, for sure. Yeah, for sure.
Riley Bowman: Whataburger would be one of those. We're going to get so much hate mail.
Riley Bowman: I would go to Whataburger 10 times out of 10 if it was right next door to an In-N-Out.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, I would never go to the In-N-Out ever.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. So anyway, now that we're going to get the hate mail rolling in.
Riley Bowman: Hey, if you want to send that hate mail, podcast.concealedcarry.com.
Riley Bowman: That's our email address.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, we just got an email when we were sitting here as we were getting ready
Jacob Paulsen: to record from somebody who listened to last week's episode who lives in Cheyenne
Jacob Paulsen: and was reminiscing about the middle-of-nowhere gun range we talked about last
Jacob Paulsen: week. So, yeah, bring on the email and the messages.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, yeah. Let us know how much you love In-N-Out.
Jacob Paulsen: Or don't.
Riley Bowman: Let's see. We've got a comment already coming in. What is it?
Riley Bowman: Five, seven, one stacked. I don't even know what that means.
Riley Bowman: Hello, Kim. Thanks for joining us.
Riley Bowman: If you can interpret that, Jacob, let me know.
Jacob Paulsen: I think we're talking about FN 5-7.
Riley Bowman: Oh, maybe a reference to the In-N-Out thing, to the shooting.
Riley Bowman: And one of the heroes of that shooting.
Riley Bowman: Guys, we also have a bunch of other really good stories. And one of the reasons
Riley Bowman: we do the Justified Savings episode is to share lessons learned and things we
Riley Bowman: can get out of these experiences.
Riley Bowman: The likelihood any one of us at any given time or on any given day would be involved in,
Riley Bowman: a shooting, particularly like a mass shooting or,
Riley Bowman: active killer attack you know that kind of thing pretty low or any kind of justified
Riley Bowman: save type incident it's relatively low chance uh for some of us less so than
Riley Bowman: others depending on where you live but it's still a relatively low chance,
Riley Bowman: and uh that means you know this is not the sort of thing that,
Riley Bowman: uh any one person gets a lot of experience in is in self-defense actual you
Riley Bowman: know use of gun incidents right we're in practice.
Jacob Paulsen: Us all the time we
Riley Bowman: Never go to the game we think it's highly valuable to study these kinds of incidents
Riley Bowman: and that's what we do here is bringing to you a number of these justified saves
Riley Bowman: i have to let you know every time we go through and pull stories for this,
Riley Bowman: and our sources for these because we're not doing video reviews like our friend
Riley Bowman: john korea or anything like it doesn't matter if they have a video attached
Riley Bowman: to them or not sometimes we get a video sometimes we don't
Riley Bowman: but we pull from all kinds of stories, and I have to filter through and get
Riley Bowman: rid of so many good examples.
Riley Bowman: Tons and tons of, like, it's interesting because I saw something recently,
Riley Bowman: Jacob, is on some mainstream, I don't remember, CNN or something.
Riley Bowman: It was a more mainstream publication of some sort, and there was a reference,
Riley Bowman: and they were obviously referencing to or quoting from one of the more anti-gun
Riley Bowman: organizations out there, just talking about how,
Riley Bowman: rare it is for citizens to use their gun in self-defense.
Riley Bowman: Now, I just said a moment ago, it is rare that any one of us would have an incident.
Riley Bowman: But how rare are these sorts of things actually to occur, meaning any kind of
Riley Bowman: justified save or defensive gun use?
Jacob Paulsen: Not rare at all.
Riley Bowman: I can find an example every single day. Every single day. And those are just... And that's...
Riley Bowman: Just filtering through the ones that are out there and those are the only ones
Riley Bowman: that those are just from the ones that actually get reported on right there's
Riley Bowman: so many more that never even hit the news sites the airwaves and so forth um,
Riley Bowman: and so there's lots of great examples we do the best that we can to bring some
Riley Bowman: to you that are of value in some way,
Riley Bowman: we will get to actually we're gonna do our first sponsor read here in a moment
Riley Bowman: but i do want to let you know our sponsors of Today's episode are CCW Safe,
Riley Bowman: which you can find more at ccwsafe.com, and HK, which you can learn more about at hk-usa.com.
Riley Bowman: Those are our sponsors today, CCW Safe and HK.
Riley Bowman: But we're going to go ahead and jump right into this first story,
Riley Bowman: Jacob. This is a what not to do out of Hancock County, Indiana.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: It's a road rage situation.
Jacob Paulsen: And despite being a what not to do, the story starts out by telling us that
Jacob Paulsen: no charges are being filed.
Jacob Paulsen: So this is one of those, you know, presumably legal, but not awesome,
Jacob Paulsen: you know, not awesome situations.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, it is very clear that, you know, the prosecutor's office said that no
Riley Bowman: charges are filed or will be filed.
Riley Bowman: And so that's fair. So this technically would be considered a justified save,
Riley Bowman: you know, as far as how we define it.
Riley Bowman: But the what not to do aspect of this has more to do with some of the finer,
Riley Bowman: you know, grainier details of the actual incident itself. And there's some takeaways.
Riley Bowman: There's some really important takeaways, I think, from this incident.
Riley Bowman: You want to give us the facts of this shooting?
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, I read to read this one a couple of times because we got two cars.
Jacob Paulsen: We got a Volkswagen Jetta and a Dodge Journey.
Jacob Paulsen: Now, first I had to Google Dodge Journey.
Riley Bowman: It's a little crossover funky thing.
Jacob Paulsen: It's like, what the crap is a Dodge Journey? and a Volkswagen Jetta,
Jacob Paulsen: I was shocked because, okay, never mind. I'll keep my thoughts to myself.
Jacob Paulsen: That was not going to go well. All right. The hate mail would have come more. Okay, so...
Jacob Paulsen: You had two vehicles cruising, the Jetta and the Dodge Journey.
Jacob Paulsen: And according to witnesses, the Dodge Journey starts to ride the bumper of the Jetta aggressively.
Jacob Paulsen: And they come to some sort of construction zone, and the Dodge Journey guy gets
Jacob Paulsen: out of his Dodge Journey and aggressively approaches the Volkswagen Jetta.
Jacob Paulsen: One witness specifically says that the Dodge Journey guy told the Volkswagen
Jacob Paulsen: Jetta driver, you shouldn't be driving on my road that fast, mother such and such.
Jacob Paulsen: So apparently we are upset that the Jetta has been driving so fast on our road,
Jacob Paulsen: and maybe there's other grievances.
Riley Bowman: I like how he says it's my road.
Jacob Paulsen: Right. You've been driving too fast on my road. So, yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: So our Dodge guy, he starts to go back toward his Dodge.
Jacob Paulsen: But he changes his mind. He's like, you know what? I got more to say to the Jetta driver.
Jacob Paulsen: So Dodge goes back toward Jetta. Now, Jetta, maybe noting that this guy is coming
Jacob Paulsen: back toward him, decides he doesn't like that. He doesn't want any more exchange.
Jacob Paulsen: So Jetta driver steps out of his vehicle with a handgun.
Jacob Paulsen: Now, as far as we know, Dodge Journey guy had no gun, had no weapon.
Jacob Paulsen: There's certainly no mention of it anywhere.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, it actually says in the article, the prosecutor makes no mention of this man being ever armed.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, also doesn't make any mention of them not being armed.
Jacob Paulsen: It's just not – so we assume, presuming that there was no gun there.
Jacob Paulsen: So Volkswagen man says, quote, I wouldn't do that. Don't do that. Get back in your car.
Jacob Paulsen: So the Jetta guy, he's basically like using his gun and inferring like,
Jacob Paulsen: dude, stay away. Don't get closer to me.
Jacob Paulsen: Go back to your Dodge Journey crossover thing, apparently.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Do you mind? I'm going to put the pause on just a little bit here.
Riley Bowman: I'll let you continue with the facts here in a moment. But the way I kind of
Riley Bowman: interpret this. Now, understand, folks, we read in between the lines on these
Riley Bowman: stories a lot. Yeah, we do.
Riley Bowman: And it's more about like, you know, it's less about what the actual facts of
Riley Bowman: the incident are and more about what can we get out of this.
Riley Bowman: What kind of situations can we see ourselves placed in that might mirror this or look like this?
Riley Bowman: I mean, first, try to avoid road rage incidents wherever possible, right?
Riley Bowman: But what I'm talking about here is, you know, it says the Volkswagen driver
Riley Bowman: gets out of the car with a gun.
Riley Bowman: And I'm thinking, you know, in my context, that's strange to me.
Riley Bowman: Because if I was going to get out of my car, getting out of the car with my
Riley Bowman: gun would mean I'm getting out and it's in my holster. like,
Riley Bowman: you know, that or it's in my hand.
Riley Bowman: But then I started thinking, Jacob, you know, because there's not a context
Riley Bowman: where I would get out unless I was faced with a weapon with gun in hand.
Riley Bowman: All right. Because it's just going to be in my holster. Right.
Riley Bowman: And by the way, I'm not saying I would get out of the car in this incident.
Riley Bowman: In fact, we'll talk about that. I'm sure some more as a lesson learned, but.
Riley Bowman: The way I can see this happening, and maybe this gives some people some food for thought.
Riley Bowman: So that's why I'm planting this idea here now is some people carry,
Riley Bowman: you know, not on their personal in their car, but they'll have it in a car holster,
Riley Bowman: you know, or put it in their glove box or center console or it's in their cup holder.
Riley Bowman: And so if you're in that situation and you're like, well, I'm going to,
Riley Bowman: for whatever reason, I'm not saying it's the right answer, get out of the vehicle,
Riley Bowman: but you want to make sure you have a defensive tool available.
Riley Bowman: Because you don't have anything else, and you don't have a holster on you,
Riley Bowman: your only option is to get out of the car with that gun in hand.
Riley Bowman: I guess you could stuff it in your waistband.
Riley Bowman: But what people are going to do in a situation like that is they're going to just grab the gun.
Riley Bowman: And it doesn't say anything about this guy pointing the gun at the other man
Riley Bowman: until he fired or anything like that or using it in a threatening manner.
Riley Bowman: It could simply have been that he just got out of the car and the gun is in
Riley Bowman: his hand, even though it's down at his side. You see what I'm getting at?
Jacob Paulsen: Well, I think he is certainly inferring a threat because a witness says,
Jacob Paulsen: quote, I wouldn't do that, right? So don't do that. I wouldn't do that.
Jacob Paulsen: Get back in your car, end quote.
Jacob Paulsen: So I think that's suggestive that certainly he's holding the gun in some way
Jacob Paulsen: that's – like he wants – he makes sure the other man sees it.
Riley Bowman: You're reading that quote a little bit off. That supposedly is what the Volkswagen
Riley Bowman: driver said to – The Dodge guy. Yeah, okay. I thought you said a witness said.
Jacob Paulsen: Well, the witness says that this is what was said.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, okay, gotcha.
Jacob Paulsen: This is based on a witness statement.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
Jacob Paulsen: The witness statement said that the Jetta gun-toting man told the Dodge Journey guy,
Riley Bowman: I wouldn't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that.
Jacob Paulsen: Get back in your car. So that verbiage suggests to me that he was holding or
Jacob Paulsen: displaying the gun in some way, that he intended the Dodge driver to see it.
Riley Bowman: Ah, okay. I gotcha. I gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, so that may be, right?
Riley Bowman: And I'm just saying what I think what I've seen happen in other instances,
Riley Bowman: and that's why I'm bringing this into the conversation here,
Riley Bowman: is someone gets out of a vehicle with a gun in hand. We've seen other situations like this.
Riley Bowman: I'm basically asking the question, Jacob, why? Why would you do that?
Riley Bowman: Especially if you're not...
Riley Bowman: In a, you're not facing an imminent deadly threat.
Jacob Paulsen: Right? Yeah, I mean.
Riley Bowman: So you're either making, in other words, you're either making a bad decision.
Riley Bowman: You're introducing a gun when one's not warranted yet, or you're doing it out
Riley Bowman: of necessity because you're going to get out with gun. And the only way you
Riley Bowman: have to do that because you don't carry it on your person is to get out with it in your hand.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, either way bad. Either way bad. All right. Agreed, 100%.
Jacob Paulsen: So, despite the Jetta's verbal threats or warnings, the Dodge Journeyman keeps advancing,
Jacob Paulsen: and the Jetta driver then fires several shots, striking Dodge Journeyman more than once.
Jacob Paulsen: Dodge Journeyman returns to said Dodge Journey and, quote, succumbed to his injuries.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: So, here's the biggest thing that sticks out to me on this. I mean that isn't obvious
Jacob Paulsen: Like, the Jetta driver is innocent
Jacob Paulsen: as a driver. Like, he is not a participant in a road wage scenario.
Jacob Paulsen: Like, we see a lot of these stories we read are two people who are both aggressors.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: Like, it's usually unclear who pissed off, who first. But you usually have two
Jacob Paulsen: people that are both aggressors, and they come to some confrontation.
Jacob Paulsen: But this is different. I mean, in fact, we had that, what,
Jacob Paulsen: six, four, five, six months ago, with a scenario where two guys were yelling
Jacob Paulsen: at each other and they pull off on the side of the road and they keep yelling
Jacob Paulsen: and screaming and fighting and eventually shots fire off and I'm sort of like
Jacob Paulsen: yeah I mean who's the innocent party here
Jacob Paulsen: in the moment that it escalates right but this is a scenario where any of us
Jacob Paulsen: I think could identify with because based on the information we have Jeddah
Jacob Paulsen: Driver didn't know he'd done anything wrong
Jacob Paulsen: he wasn't swerving he wasn't flipping someone off he wasn't slamming on his
Jacob Paulsen: brakes or you know like he just driving along as far as we know,
Jacob Paulsen: and all of a sudden someone's upset with him. And it's like, what did I do?
Jacob Paulsen: And this guy's yelling and screaming at me. And is he leaving?
Jacob Paulsen: Is he going back to his car? No, wait, maybe he's coming back.
Jacob Paulsen: So anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that sometimes we think,
Jacob Paulsen: well, if I'm just good at de-escalation, if I don't escalate a road rage scenario,
Jacob Paulsen: then I can avoid these situations.
Jacob Paulsen: And this is a one-sided one.
Jacob Paulsen: This is a proof and evidence that sometimes you can do nothing wrong on the
Jacob Paulsen: road and not be escalating or
Jacob Paulsen: being rude and still be targeted by someone else who's having a bad day.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that's a fair point to make because it specifies
Riley Bowman: that this happened in a construction zone.
Riley Bowman: So I can see this happening where the journey driver, the Dodge driver,
Riley Bowman: manages to get in front of the other guy and it's in a construction zone, which sometimes,
Riley Bowman: might mean that you have a restricted lane, meaning that you're maybe down to
Riley Bowman: one lane, you got nowhere else to go. Maybe that Dodge driver at that point,
Riley Bowman: Puts his brakes on and now you
Riley Bowman: can't go anywhere, right? You got traffic behind you. You can't back up.
Riley Bowman: So like I can see where this could put a person in a position where it's like I am out of options.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, can't go forward, can't go back.
Riley Bowman: But there are still some options here. And I think that's where the biggest
Riley Bowman: lessons to be learned for us as concealed carriers come from with this incident.
Riley Bowman: And where we call into question some of the actions. Again, not trying to like
Riley Bowman: be too hard on the guy here. And again, prosecution has found him to be innocent, okay? which is fine.
Riley Bowman: But this is still a, hey, this guy may have gotten lucky with this particular prosecutor, right?
Riley Bowman: In a different jurisdiction, this could play out very differently.
Jacob Paulsen: Right? Yeah, and legal things aside, before this incident happened,
Jacob Paulsen: there was one more Dodge Journey owner than there is now.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, yeah, and that has a psychological cost.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, like the man, like someone might have one, like there could be kids out
Jacob Paulsen: there that don't have a dad now.
Jacob Paulsen: Yep. Wife that doesn't have a husband, someone who doesn't have a son, doesn't have a brother,
Jacob Paulsen: and who knows how many family members are impacted by the loss of this man,
Jacob Paulsen: let alone our presumably innocent victim who now has to live with the fact that
Jacob Paulsen: they just took someone's life over a road rage incident.
Riley Bowman: And that bears a psychological and emotional cost.
Jacob Paulsen: That's the crazy crap here. Yeah. Did you dodge a legal bullet?
Jacob Paulsen: Probably. You probably did.
Jacob Paulsen: But more importantly, you fired a bullet that took a life. Like, this is crazy.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Yep. So it comes down to,
Riley Bowman: get out of the vehicle or not is how I see this. And I don't – I can't –,
Riley Bowman: And we maybe don't have all the facts here, but why? Why get out of the vehicle?
Riley Bowman: If the other guy doesn't have a weapon.
Jacob Paulsen: Right, if he's not armed.
Riley Bowman: Okay, we're going to make that assumption here. If he doesn't have a weapon, right,
Riley Bowman: he doesn't have anything he's using to try to gain access to your vehicle,
Riley Bowman: like what can he do to you while you're inside your vehicle with it's secured,
Riley Bowman: doors locked, windows up, right? Like what's the worst he can do?
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: Right? Have you ever seen a guy able to punch out a vehicle window? I haven't.
Riley Bowman: You don't know how hard it is to actually break automobile glass unless you
Riley Bowman: have a very, very sharp pointy thing.
Jacob Paulsen: I've seen it in the movies so many times. So Riley's clearly wrong.
Jacob Paulsen: I mean, I'm remembering another vehicle road rage incident in Vegas where one
Jacob Paulsen: man's kind of the innocent guy. The other guy's the aggressor.
Jacob Paulsen: And he refuses to get out of his car when he's being attacked.
Jacob Paulsen: And so the BG starts destroying his car. Sure, sure. He takes a crowbar,
Jacob Paulsen: a tire iron or something, starts breaking headlights.
Jacob Paulsen: You know and so then then the innocent guy gets out of his car and they do a
Jacob Paulsen: little dance around the car it ultimately he's trying to get back into his car
Jacob Paulsen: and when he's not able to he has to shoot the other guy so you know again like it's it's
Jacob Paulsen: like what what would it take like how much has to happen for you to finally
Jacob Paulsen: say i gotta get out of this car
Jacob Paulsen: and the answer should be a lot it would take a lot to cause me to get out of
Jacob Paulsen: this car like you'd have to take out a window that gave you access to one of
Jacob Paulsen: the humans inside. That's what it would take for me.
Jacob Paulsen: Like, yeah, if you had a crowbar and you bust out my driver's side window,
Jacob Paulsen: and I'm like, oh, now you can hit me in the head with a crowbar.
Jacob Paulsen: Okay, like now maybe I got to do something. And maybe staying in the car and
Jacob Paulsen: shooting is the best option. Maybe exiting the car is better.
Jacob Paulsen: That opens up all sorts of other things.
Riley Bowman: The other thing here, and I've noticed this kind of, I don't know if trend's
Riley Bowman: the right word. It's not, but...
Riley Bowman: So we've seen over the years a number of instances, Jacob, where an unarmed
Riley Bowman: man continues to advance towards an armed man.
Riley Bowman: There's actually a highly publicized case here out of Aurora or Arvada or someplace,
Riley Bowman: in our Denver metro area where an officer is now facing charges because he shot an unarmed man.
Riley Bowman: Because that unarmed man continued to advance on that officer who already had his gun drawn.
Riley Bowman: And so just because you have a gun drawn does not mean that the other person,
Riley Bowman: the aggressor, is going to make a logical, reasonable choice of going,
Riley Bowman: oh, hey, man, I don't want to mess with this.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, that's a good point.
Riley Bowman: You know what I mean?
Jacob Paulsen: We kind of assume or presume or just think that, like, if I show this thing, I win now.
Jacob Paulsen: Yep. Argument over, you're going to go away. Yep.
Riley Bowman: It doesn't often work out. And so that's one of the other subtle lessons,
Riley Bowman: I think, of this incident is that once the gun is introduced,
Riley Bowman: especially in a situation where the other party is unarmed,
Riley Bowman: if they call you a bluff, meaning they come at you still like as if you don't have a gun,
Riley Bowman: it almost forces your hand because you have a gun out.
Riley Bowman: What could happen? Well, they could take it from you, and then you really have a problem.
Riley Bowman: And so you almost get in a position where you feel obligated to now use it,
Riley Bowman: and you're using it against somebody who's not armed.
Jacob Paulsen: It's a gamble is what it comes down to. You're betting some odds,
Jacob Paulsen: and if you win the gamble, great. But if you lose the gamble, great.
Jacob Paulsen: Man, high risk, high reward, man.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Well, I know we spent some time on that, but I think there's just a lot
Riley Bowman: of interesting angles of that story there.
Riley Bowman: And we want you to be thinking about this stuff because this is the sort of
Riley Bowman: thing you want to be making decisions before you ever have to make the decisions.
Riley Bowman: And that's what Jacob just did. He's like, you're going to have to do a lot.
Riley Bowman: You're going to have to cross some major thresholds to get me to come out of
Riley Bowman: my vehicle if I'm the innocent party in a road rage incident.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: And that's a wise decision to make ahead of time. Okay. So you're not just reacting
Riley Bowman: in the moment and you're reacting more emotionally as opposed to using your brain.
Riley Bowman: Okay. At this point, we're going to take a quick break for our sponsor, CCW Safe.
Riley Bowman: And I think that story is a perfect example for this too, because I'll tell
Riley Bowman: you, hey, we don't have to make perfect decisions as self-defenders,
Riley Bowman: but we do need to make reasonable ones as best as we can.
Jacob Paulsen: Based on the information we have in the moment.
Riley Bowman: Right, right. We can always look back at a situation. That means ourselves,
Riley Bowman: if we were the first person involved or looking at somebody else's problem.
Riley Bowman: But we can always look back and find ways to do better and to improve.
Riley Bowman: So you don't have to make the perfect decisions, but you do need to make reasonably good ones.
Riley Bowman: And even when you do make reasonably good decisions, it's still possible you
Riley Bowman: find yourself faced with legal charges or a legal fight of some kind.
Riley Bowman: Even if you're not facing charges, who knows? I mean, maybe the family of this
Riley Bowman: guy that just got shot decides to sue this guy. Yeah, sure.
Riley Bowman: And I don't know about the laws in, what was it, Indiana, okay,
Riley Bowman: if there's any sort of preclusion that he's been ruled innocent in this case, no charges.
Jacob Paulsen: The charges just haven't been filed.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, so there's a possibility he could still see a civil lawsuit.
Jacob Paulsen: Wrongful death suit, right? Yeah, sure.
Riley Bowman: So anyway you want to have a good,
Riley Bowman: I was going to say program, but program is the wrong word. You want to have
Riley Bowman: good people that back you up, like the folks over at CCW Safe.
Riley Bowman: And that's what they are. They are people that understand how this stuff works.
Riley Bowman: They do their job very well, and they believe in backing their people,
Riley Bowman: their members, with the best insurance, in my opinion, insurance.
Riley Bowman: Okay, legal coverage in the industry. That's CCW Safe, ccwsafe.com.
Riley Bowman: Anything else you want to add?
Jacob Paulsen: The magic of that company and that product is their critical response team.
Jacob Paulsen: As far as I know, they're the only company in that space that has a critical response team.
Jacob Paulsen: Not someone who takes phone calls in the middle of the night and says,
Jacob Paulsen: oh, yes, we will send money and lawyers.
Jacob Paulsen: Like a critical response team that takes the call and says, let's mobilize, let's roll.
Jacob Paulsen: And that critical response team is made up of former prosecutors and investigators
Jacob Paulsen: who've been on the scenes of these events many times.
Jacob Paulsen: And so that is the magic. When you said it's about the people,
Jacob Paulsen: that is the magic. They just hit their 15-year anniversary, by the way.
Jacob Paulsen: I saw they were celebrating 15 years. Yes.
Riley Bowman: Congratulations, CCW Safe, on 15 years of being, in our opinion,
Riley Bowman: the best company in the business.
Riley Bowman: So we hope that you guys will consider joining CCW Safe today.
Riley Bowman: If you haven't already, go to CCWSafe.com and learn more about their specific
Riley Bowman: programs because you can find one that will fit your needs. I'm pretty confident.
Riley Bowman: And just a reminder that Guardian Nation members save a discount as well off CCWSafe membership.
Riley Bowman: So thank you, CCWSA, for your sponsorship of this podcast and of today's episode.
Riley Bowman: Let's get to our next story, Jacob.
Riley Bowman: Because I know we've got people that are waiting for us to talk about the In-N-Out
Riley Bowman: thing. That's kind of a big one. But we're going to get through a couple of other good lessons.
Riley Bowman: You're jumping to Rochester, New York.
Jacob Paulsen: Rochester, New York.
Riley Bowman: All right. It's a relatively brief story. There's not a lot here.
Jacob Paulsen: I mean, but there's some context that matters. You're the homeowner. Yep.
Jacob Paulsen: And your house has been broken into twice in the last couple of months, twice in June.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. And so now fast forward, it's been a couple weeks, months, month.
Jacob Paulsen: And you can wake up in the middle of the night because you hear someone trying
Jacob Paulsen: to get through the back door.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. It's like, here we go again.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. That's exactly why I included this story in today's episode.
Riley Bowman: It was that little detail where the guy, you know, the homeowner apparently
Riley Bowman: tells investigators that, hey, my house has been burglarized. twice since June.
Riley Bowman: So in less than two months. So basically he's averaging more than one break-in
Riley Bowman: in burglary per month this summer, right? Yeah.
Riley Bowman: And that's a problem. So I suspect...
Riley Bowman: That probably put this guy a little bit more on edge, probably made sure that
Riley Bowman: he was prepared a little bit more.
Riley Bowman: So he's got his gun or he's carrying his gun or he's making sure it's loaded or whatever it is.
Riley Bowman: Because on this fateful morning, it happened at 4.15 a.m. You know,
Riley Bowman: I'm probably guilty of feeling like most bad guys go to bed at some point, Jacob.
Riley Bowman: You know, like you kind of think, ah, midnight, 1, 2 a.m., maybe 2.30 in the morning, you know.
Riley Bowman: And then things ought to start quieting down, right? But no, no, no, no.
Riley Bowman: We actually have quite a few incidences like this that happen in the wee hours
Riley Bowman: of the morning. 4.15 in the morning.
Jacob Paulsen: Well, the highest time, like the, what's the word I'm looking for?
Jacob Paulsen: The time of day that indexes the highest for home burglaries is like 10.30 in
Jacob Paulsen: the morning to like 1.30 in the afternoon. Right.
Jacob Paulsen: So yeah, we associate criminal activity with like a late night thing.
Jacob Paulsen: Like these are people that sleep in and then stay up late. But the data doesn't support that.
Riley Bowman: Right, right. So these kinds of things can happen any time of day.
Riley Bowman: And this one happened at 4, 15 in the morning. And as was mentioned,
Riley Bowman: guys had his house burglarized a couple times. So he happened to hear this person
Riley Bowman: trying to break in through the back door.
Riley Bowman: That person apparently gained entry because the intruder was found dead in the
Riley Bowman: man's kitchen in the home.
Riley Bowman: He met officers there, and that's where they found the dead BG.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, so I mean, the way I presume it is like, oh, so I hear someone's rattling
Jacob Paulsen: the doorknob, trying to get through the back door, grab gun,
Jacob Paulsen: go downstairs. Oh, this guy's already in the house. He's in my kitchen. Confrontation.
Riley Bowman: Pa, pa, pa. Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: That's how the journalist wrote the sound effect when described by the neighbor
Jacob Paulsen: that he heard a pa, pa, pa.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, yeah.
Riley Bowman: And this story was also notable because this was in New York.
Riley Bowman: Now, it's Rochester, which is not New York City necessarily,
Riley Bowman: but we don't actually come across as many justified safe stories out of New York,
Riley Bowman: which I think is probably because
Riley Bowman: there's not as many people that are armed. I could be wrong in that.
Jacob Paulsen: Well, I mean, Rochester is, like I said, it's not part of the five boroughs
Jacob Paulsen: or whatever. And so this is a place where there's probably a much more high
Jacob Paulsen: occasion of people being guns. But, yeah, I mean, the article had to point out
Jacob Paulsen: that this gun, the man is a licensed carrier and the gun is registered or,
Jacob Paulsen: you know, something like that. Yeah. Good job, journalist.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Here's another story. Tuscumbia, Alabama. Homeowner stops a 3 a.m. break-in.
Riley Bowman: So here we have another early morning or late night, depending on how you want
Riley Bowman: to interpret it. but early morning break into a home,
Riley Bowman: Um, about 3 a.m. on a Saturday when officers received or dispatch received a
Riley Bowman: 911 call, deputies with the sheriff's department there, uh, excuse me,
Riley Bowman: the police department responded.
Riley Bowman: Then it says deputies assisted at the scene. Um, anyway, homeowner,
Riley Bowman: this is the best detail I've come across a story in a long time.
Riley Bowman: There's not a lot of details to the story.
Riley Bowman: That's why this particular thing stands out.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: Because after it just kind of lays out the groundwork of where it happened and
Riley Bowman: what time it happened and which officer or agencies responded, it then just says this.
Riley Bowman: Authorities say the homeowner shot the suspect in the feet during the attempted burglary.
Jacob Paulsen: That's it. That's the whole story. That's all you get. After that,
Jacob Paulsen: the suspect's taken to the hospital. He's expected to face charges,
Jacob Paulsen: not life-threatening injuries. That's it. That's it. That's all we get.
Jacob Paulsen: And we were talking about this one before. And I had read it before,
Jacob Paulsen: and I said something like, yeah, I got shot in the foot. And you're like,
Jacob Paulsen: no, feet, plural. And I was like, oh, crap, you're right.
Jacob Paulsen: Presumably each foot got shot.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. I mean, so I don't know what happened here, but this is a very fascinating detail.
Jacob Paulsen: Get out of here, I'm going to make you dance.
Riley Bowman: It makes me think that there were some warnings issued and maybe some warning
Riley Bowman: shots that were aimed downward and aimed at the feet.
Riley Bowman: I don't know the whole context here, but it's just an interesting little detail.
Riley Bowman: I was telling Jacob, I think this is the first time I've ever read in a story
Riley Bowman: like this. We've covered many of these over the years where it's specified a,
Riley Bowman: bad guy being shot in the feet.
Riley Bowman: We've seen arm or hand or leg many, many, many times, but specifically feet.
Riley Bowman: And not just one foot, but feet.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, who knows? That was intentional or accidental? or just really bad marksmanship?
Riley Bowman: Yeah, it's really, really, really bad marksmanship if they were trying to hit
Riley Bowman: somewhere else. Yes, yes, yes. So that's kind of an interesting one.
Riley Bowman: Let's go now to Morton, Illinois. This one really got my attention.
Riley Bowman: These sorts of things aren't super common in the justified saves category,
Riley Bowman: Jacob. But we've had a few stories over the years that are similar.
Riley Bowman: I can specifically remember, I think Matthew and I talked about,
Riley Bowman: I think it was me and Matthew. Maybe it was you. I don't know.
Jacob Paulsen: Oh, we had one out here in Aurora not that long ago.
Riley Bowman: Sure, sure. But I remember a story once where we talked about it more from the
Riley Bowman: angle of it wasn't a justified save.
Riley Bowman: It was just a, what can we learn from this? and it was a little girl being attacked
Riley Bowman: by a vicious dog and the mother was basically, like, the girl died and the mother
Riley Bowman: failed to defend her daughter from this dog attack.
Riley Bowman: It was really, really sad. It really, like, hit me in the feels, you know.
Riley Bowman: And it just was one of those lessons of, like, I mean, these kinds of things can happen.
Riley Bowman: And dog attacks are a crazy thing. I mean, most of us don't have vicious dogs
Riley Bowman: and don't have to worry about it.
Riley Bowman: But we might have to worry about somebody else's vicious dog.
Riley Bowman: And those things can be very unpredictable. They can happen out of nowhere.
Riley Bowman: And you might think, oh, it's just a dog, right? But no, these things can be
Riley Bowman: really, really vicious, and they can do a lot of damage in a very short window of time.
Riley Bowman: Fortunately, this one ended a lot better than the example I was just referring to.
Riley Bowman: But basically, we had a dog attack. This is Morton, Illinois.
Riley Bowman: It was a juvenile. I don't know how young exactly.
Jacob Paulsen: Two dogs are involved actually.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, that's right.
Jacob Paulsen: A pair of attackers.
Riley Bowman: And that's not uncommon either, especially when one initiates,
Riley Bowman: especially if it's more of the alpha, if you will, then other dogs will a lot of times join in.
Riley Bowman: Two dogs begin attacking, it says, this juvenile, okay? It says there was an
Riley Bowman: animal control officer that found them attacking the juvenile.
Riley Bowman: A village of Morton employee. I assume, maybe that's somebody in addition to
Riley Bowman: the animal control officer, but
Riley Bowman: then it says there's a private citizen who stopped to provide aid, okay?
Jacob Paulsen: Before the juvenile was taken to the hospital.
Riley Bowman: Before they're taken to the hospital, okay? It also says here that before officers
Riley Bowman: arrived, the dog that attacked the juvenile charged at the aforementioned citizen.
Riley Bowman: So we've had the attack, right?
Riley Bowman: And a couple of people have stepped in and they've managed to end the attack, the initial attack.
Riley Bowman: The juvenile is obviously injured and is going to be transported to the hospital.
Riley Bowman: But before cops, like actual sworn law enforcement officers arrive on the scene,
Riley Bowman: the dog that, and it just says, now it says the dog. So one of these two dogs
Riley Bowman: that was involved in this attack
Riley Bowman: now charges at this, the good Samaritan citizen that stopped to help.
Riley Bowman: At that point, the citizen, and it says, who was a concealed carry license holder,
Riley Bowman: drew and discharged their firearm and killed the dog.
Jacob Paulsen: The story is really poorly written. I'm still not sure that what you just described
Jacob Paulsen: as the narrative is exactly what happened.
Riley Bowman: I'm trying to read it as clear as I can.
Jacob Paulsen: It's certainly a viable possibility that that's how it went down.
Jacob Paulsen: But it's just either the detail's not there and or in my opinion it's just not written well.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, it could be.
Jacob Paulsen: But one way or another what's clear is that a licensed concealed carrier shot
Jacob Paulsen: a dog that was charging the gun owner.
Jacob Paulsen: And that the same dog along with another dog had been attacking a juvenile.
Jacob Paulsen: So that's, you know,
Jacob Paulsen: you know, a common question I get in firing training classes when we're talking
Jacob Paulsen: about legal things is people want to know if they can defend their animals with
Jacob Paulsen: deadly force, which as a general rule is no.
Jacob Paulsen: But the opposite of that is, well, but can I defend an animal that is using
Jacob Paulsen: deadly force? And that answer, of course, is yes.
Jacob Paulsen: And that's what happened here. And so I think that we always kind of presume
Jacob Paulsen: that the threats are going to come from other humans, but I suppose the threat
Jacob Paulsen: could come from an animal.
Jacob Paulsen: But I'll just add this one last thought, and that is that
Jacob Paulsen: And mentally rehearsing how I would shoot a dog is tough.
Jacob Paulsen: I don't mean like emotionally. It would be tough emotionally because I'm a huge
Jacob Paulsen: dog guy. But I mean like tactically speaking, dogs move very fast.
Jacob Paulsen: Absolutely. And if they're in the progress of an attack, then you risk shooting
Jacob Paulsen: the person they're attacking.
Riley Bowman: And we've covered a story or two where that very thing has happened.
Riley Bowman: Where the innocent person that's being attacked gets shot. Gets shot.
Jacob Paulsen: So now in this case, it looks like we sort of pry the dogs off the juvenile
Jacob Paulsen: and then there's a charge and a shot fired.
Jacob Paulsen: So, you know, that would seem like some good judicial judgment was used there.
Jacob Paulsen: But you're also generally probably outdoors.
Jacob Paulsen: So you're shooting into concrete or asphalt, things that tend to see bullets
Jacob Paulsen: keep moving in directions that are sometimes highly unpredictable.
Jacob Paulsen: Uh so so dog charging at you and shooting that dog that's that's
Jacob Paulsen: that's not going to be easy yeah and waiting for it to you know latch onto your
Jacob Paulsen: arm and drag you around and rip the muscles from your bone would be a difficult
Jacob Paulsen: moment to try and shoot that dog
Riley Bowman: Absolutely and so it's a great reminder and a point here to be made that,
Riley Bowman: we got to absolutely be certain of our backstop wherever we're,
Riley Bowman: firing those rounds because there is a definite possibility,
Riley Bowman: probability maybe even of missing and you got to be accountable for those errant rounds go.
Riley Bowman: Or depending on the size of the dog, the dog may not be as meaty as a human
Riley Bowman: and our defensive rounds are generally designed for human threats.
Riley Bowman: So it's possible too that you could shoot and hit the dog but still have a round
Riley Bowman: that could pose a threat to somebody else after it passes through that dog.
Riley Bowman: Got to know what your backstop is and make sure you got a clear shot if that's
Riley Bowman: the sort of thing you got to do.
Riley Bowman: I'll also mention that something like palm pepper spray, which I've got here
Riley Bowman: in my pocket, uh, has been known to be effective against dogs.
Riley Bowman: And so there's other options too, potentially.
Riley Bowman: Um, obviously you won't have that option if you don't carry it.
Riley Bowman: Okay. So, um, it's a good idea to have this.
Riley Bowman: I, you know, I go for my runs in the morning, Jacob, and I, you know,
Riley Bowman: I go for runs where I'm carrying a gun too, but I always make sure I have my
Riley Bowman: pepper spray with me on my morning runs.
Riley Bowman: Yesterday I got surprised by a dog actually, and fortunately it was friendly,
Riley Bowman: but it initially barked at me and I wasn't aware of it. It was around the corner
Riley Bowman: of a fence, and all of a sudden he's just there and he's rawr,
Riley Bowman: rawr. And then I was like, ooh.
Riley Bowman: Unfortunately, my hand went to my pepper spray. I was getting ready,
Riley Bowman: but then he wagged his tail and looked a lot friendlier, And I was like, oh, okay.
Riley Bowman: So anyway, just some things to think about there. Let's go to Tulsa, Oklahoma now.
Jacob Paulsen: This one's a little confusing because it's like someone has a business,
Jacob Paulsen: but it's like the business is in like a home. I don't know.
Jacob Paulsen: I mean, that's the part that's confusing. The rest of it's pretty straightforward. Yeah.
Riley Bowman: So I opened the wrong link there. There is a little bit of an image you can see. Sorry, it wasn't.
Riley Bowman: I did state the wrong location. Mobile, Alabama. That is the next story.
Riley Bowman: It is the business owner you're referring to.
Riley Bowman: So we're going to Mobile. And so you can kind of see there's a fence and there's this carport.
Jacob Paulsen: It's kind of like behind the business. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah,
Riley Bowman: I think it's the image helps.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. But you have a business.
Jacob Paulsen: And there's, like, a fenced-in parking area. Maybe, presumably,
Jacob Paulsen: it's kind of, like, behind the business, not, like, the retail front of the business.
Riley Bowman: There's a car here, and it's got, like, a number on it. It wouldn't surprise
Riley Bowman: me if this is, like, an auto repair shop or a small time, you know,
Riley Bowman: like, maybe a car dealer of some sort.
Jacob Paulsen: There's a warning that your car could get towed if you park in this area on the fence.
Riley Bowman: Anyway.
Jacob Paulsen: So, the guy's doing something out there behind his business.
Jacob Paulsen: He said he was repairing the fence. Repairing a fence.
Jacob Paulsen: And another guy drives up and asks for money.
Jacob Paulsen: So he gives him some money.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: Maybe not as much as the guy wanted, apparently. And the money-begging man decides
Jacob Paulsen: that he could get more than what was given
Jacob Paulsen: and that a good way to get it is to aggress on this man who's repairing a fence
Jacob Paulsen: in this business parking area.
Riley Bowman: Right.
Jacob Paulsen: So he gets out of his – the money-wanting man gets out of his car with his gun,
Jacob Paulsen: and he aggresses toward our business owner.
Jacob Paulsen: The business owner sees what's happening, freaks out, and this is where it gets
Jacob Paulsen: a little bit confusing because he says that he kind of like runs into this carport
Jacob Paulsen: or back into this carport
Jacob Paulsen: and tells a bunch of kids who happen to be hanging out there in the moment.
Jacob Paulsen: It doesn't say his children.
Riley Bowman: He said a couple of adults and children as well.
Jacob Paulsen: And tells them to like, run, go away. He's got a gun, you know,
Jacob Paulsen: kind of thing. Yeah. And so presumably those people do kind of run and go away.
Jacob Paulsen: And our business guy, fence repairing man,
Jacob Paulsen: Retrieves a gun from a vehicle that presumably is in the carport thing.
Jacob Paulsen: And as the money-wanting man further aggresses, boom, boom. Yeah. End of threat.
Riley Bowman: So there is a fencing company of some sort right there that matches the address.
Jacob Paulsen: What's a fencing company?
Riley Bowman: Fence repair.
Jacob Paulsen: So he's repairing.
Riley Bowman: It's called Mobile Fence. and,
Riley Bowman: it's kind of a little bit of a more rural looking industrial kind of area it
Riley Bowman: looks like there could also be a home on the property that's kind of what I
Riley Bowman: interpreted from the story is that this may be a business but,
Riley Bowman: a business on the property where the person lives as.
Jacob Paulsen: Well sure sure sure
Riley Bowman: That kind of helps maybe some of the context because you're like what's up with all these people.
Jacob Paulsen: And he's grilling
Riley Bowman: Hot dogs yeah exactly.
Jacob Paulsen: Grilling hot dogs when man demands money wants
Riley Bowman: Cash I suspect this is a small family literally family business you know because
Riley Bowman: they probably also live there but,
Riley Bowman: Yeah, so you got this guy that starts threatening the owner of the business.
Riley Bowman: And he does a couple of things really good here. You know, first he runs through
Riley Bowman: the, it says through a carport where other people, including children, were sitting.
Riley Bowman: And tells them to run and hide before grabbing his own gun. Okay.
Riley Bowman: And then once he gets his gun, he then hides behind a car.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, specifies.
Riley Bowman: So he doesn't like go straight to, you know, like, all right,
Riley Bowman: I'm going to use this gun. No, he's like, I'm going to hide.
Riley Bowman: Hopefully my kids and whoever else is hidden too. And then he apparently is
Riley Bowman: found by this aggressive man.
Riley Bowman: And that's when he ends up shooting this man. Pa-pa. And,
Riley Bowman: yeah, it's interesting. The thing that I picked up on this, besides there's
Riley Bowman: some interesting details, Jacob.
Riley Bowman: It's one of those stories. And I think we have another one actually still get to come.
Riley Bowman: Where it talks about someone having to retrieve their firearm.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, it's unclear to me. The first time I read this, I had this impression
Jacob Paulsen: that he retrieved it from a vehicle.
Jacob Paulsen: But then rereading it just now, it doesn't say that.
Jacob Paulsen: It just says that he retrieved his gun. For all we know, he retrieved it from
Jacob Paulsen: his pants. I mean, I don't know.
Jacob Paulsen: But yes, what's clear is that if he had this gun on him, he had more options
Jacob Paulsen: earlier that he just didn't exercise.
Riley Bowman: There is a detail here it is this is probably what you thought vehicle said let's see,
Riley Bowman: Said Bagley, then shouted Hughes. Oh, the bad guy here is the one that reached
Riley Bowman: into his truck and grabbed a gun.
Jacob Paulsen: Maybe that's why I like planted in my mind or something.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: But yeah, so it's unclear if our good guy had the gun on him or not.
Jacob Paulsen: If he did, then he made a judgment call to not engage immediately,
Jacob Paulsen: but to retreat to cover and warn off these other innocent people. Sure.
Jacob Paulsen: Which could have been a very viable, you know, good decision.
Riley Bowman: Or not. I can see that. But I still, and I know, I'm reading into it,
Riley Bowman: and you could read into it a variety of ways. But I think if you have the time
Riley Bowman: to run through the carport, tell these other people, run and hide.
Riley Bowman: Like, you could also be drawing that gun while you're doing that.
Riley Bowman: You know, so the way it's written before grabbing his own gun makes it seem
Riley Bowman: like he did these other things and then grabbed his gun. Like,
Riley Bowman: because it's somewhere else. I don't know.
Jacob Paulsen: It sounds that way the way it's written.
Riley Bowman: I agree.
Jacob Paulsen: I think, though, his use of cover was very prodigious, and that's one thing
Jacob Paulsen: that calls this new story out to me, is that we see a lot of scenarios where
Jacob Paulsen: it seems like it's an ambush situation where you really don't have time to seek cover,
Jacob Paulsen: or we see situations where people just don't seem to seek cover.
Jacob Paulsen: But this is a scenario where very clearly and intentionally our good guy put object,
Jacob Paulsen: both potential cover and certainly concealment between him and the bad guy and
Jacob Paulsen: then waited for the necessity to have to use the gun. Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: So that was all very judicious.
Riley Bowman: So, interesting story. Let's go now to the Tulsa, Oklahoma one.
Jacob Paulsen: All right, now we're in Tulsa.
Riley Bowman: Man shot, killed after allegedly stalking victim, breaking into apartment.
Riley Bowman: By the way, if you want to follow along or check out these sources for yourself,
Riley Bowman: you can always find them in the show notes of this episode once it's published in the podcast feed.
Riley Bowman: Authorities are investigating after a man was shot and killed after allegedly
Riley Bowman: breaking into apartment in Tulsa, it says. About 5 a.m. So again,
Riley Bowman: here's another like early morning incident.
Riley Bowman: And it says that 41-year-old man, he's the suspect in this situation.
Riley Bowman: He's ultimately the one that gets shot and killed.
Riley Bowman: He's the one that broke into the apartment. And then it goes on to say that
Riley Bowman: he stalked and threatened the victim and her boyfriend. So the victim here is a female.
Riley Bowman: And her boyfriend, well, as soon as you say the word stalk or stalking or stalked, Jacob,
Riley Bowman: I immediately think this is a domestic sort of situation,
Riley Bowman: that this guy and this girl are former partners, you know, because,
Riley Bowman: like, yes, stalking does happen between unrelated people, but it's more common,
Riley Bowman: in my experience, between, like, former lovers.
Jacob Paulsen: I hear you, but it also has this detail that says,
Jacob Paulsen: stalked and threatened the victim and her boyfriend near a local nightclub.
Jacob Paulsen: So that gives me an opposite impression. It's like they ran into this dude and
Jacob Paulsen: he started following them around
Jacob Paulsen: and they're like, hey, leave us alone and followed them all the way home.
Jacob Paulsen: It could be either. Perhaps. But I agree that stalking implies that.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, I see the word stalk and I'm like, you know, anyway.
Riley Bowman: But he stalked and threatened the victim and her boyfriend at the nightclub.
Riley Bowman: And then it's that next morning he forces his way into their apartment.
Riley Bowman: And that's where apparently the boyfriend shoots and kills him.
Jacob Paulsen: There's another detail here that's really interesting. Somewhere in the stalking
Jacob Paulsen: thing near the nightclub, in that moment where they were confronted with or engaged in this man,
Jacob Paulsen: the man, the bad guy, tells the good guy and his girlfriend that he had served
Jacob Paulsen: time for murder and was not afraid of law enforcement.
Jacob Paulsen: So maybe they're like, hey, back off. We're going to call the cops,
Jacob Paulsen: dude. and he's like, I've been in jail for murder. You think I'm afraid of cops?
Jacob Paulsen: Right. I've killed people, you know?
Jacob Paulsen: So, you know, I think that's important because it sets this precedent for a threat of violence.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. Right? Like, if you're the good guy or the girlfriend of the good guy,
Jacob Paulsen: the girlfriend's also a good guy. I guess I'm referring to the man as the good
Jacob Paulsen: guy because he's the one that fires the shots all the time.
Jacob Paulsen: So, but if you're among the good guy couple, then I think you have this sense
Jacob Paulsen: of, like, this guy's not afraid of the cops. Like, you know,
Jacob Paulsen: he just told us he's killed people before.
Jacob Paulsen: So, you know, when he comes breaking into the house –
Jacob Paulsen: Like, you know, it's not some random 14-year-old boy. Like, this is the guy
Jacob Paulsen: who's been trying to attack us, who threatened us, per se, or at least let it
Jacob Paulsen: be known that he's not afraid to kill people and he's not afraid to cops.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: That's relevant.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. It is. There's clearly – and that's where I thought, you know,
Riley Bowman: maybe there's a little more of a history between these people,
Riley Bowman: you know, than what we get from this story.
Riley Bowman: Because, like, how do they learn that detail? I don't know. You know,
Riley Bowman: that's kind of interesting.
Jacob Paulsen: Unclear, sir.
Riley Bowman: But we don't know. But one thing I was going to say, if this was,
Riley Bowman: and I'm not saying it was, but if this were...
Riley Bowman: Like a former lover of this woman, okay, who's upset that she's no longer with
Riley Bowman: him and now she's with somebody else.
Riley Bowman: And so he's mad about that and he's stalking her and he's traced him down to
Riley Bowman: this nightclub and then has found out where they live. You know,
Riley Bowman: because that sort of thing happens pretty often, unfortunately.
Riley Bowman: What I wanted to add to this, just assuming those things, and I know I'm making big assumptions.
Riley Bowman: We have legislators that want to put laws in place well we have one unfortunately
Riley Bowman: here in Colorado now with a waiting period to be able to purchase a gun and stuff like that,
Riley Bowman: because supposedly those things reduce crime which history has shown does not.
Riley Bowman: But I worry about those kinds of things because it's not uncommon to have a
Riley Bowman: woman who's very vulnerable has just gotten out of a bad relationship and has
Riley Bowman: a bad dude that's still trying to come after her. And,
Riley Bowman: those are very difficult times. And that woman has a right to self-defense.
Riley Bowman: And she may never have had to think about it before, but now she does.
Riley Bowman: And maybe, yeah, she needs training, yes. But you've got to solve problems,
Riley Bowman: you know, the most important problems first. And the number one rule of a gunfight
Riley Bowman: is bring a gun and have a gun, right? or in any kind of bad, violent situation.
Riley Bowman: And so anyway, it's just another data point,
Riley Bowman: I put in my little database, Jacob, of this is the kind of situation,
Riley Bowman: potentially, if it's that kind of situation where you got this ex-lover situation
Riley Bowman: and you want a woman to be able to defend herself, she's got to have the means to do that.
Riley Bowman: And putting roadblocks in the way of achieving that aren't the way to go about it.
Jacob Paulsen: We also have to remember that
Jacob Paulsen: most of the bad guys in most of these stories are not rational.
Jacob Paulsen: Like you, we, most, you know, if you're listening to or watching this podcast,
Jacob Paulsen: you're probably a pretty rational person.
Jacob Paulsen: And the problem with being rational is that we tend to see the world through
Jacob Paulsen: the paradigm of which we are.
Jacob Paulsen: And so it's harder for us to recognize or anticipate what, you know,
Jacob Paulsen: the actions of a very unrational person would be.
Jacob Paulsen: And so, you know, someone would stalk you like this and force the way into your
Jacob Paulsen: home and, you know, with who knows what intent. Like, people who are listening
Jacob Paulsen: to my voice, like, we wouldn't do that.
Jacob Paulsen: So, sometimes we have to remind ourselves that there are people who would do
Jacob Paulsen: that. And that's a problem.
Riley Bowman: Mm-hmm.
Riley Bowman: It is. All right. Jacob, we're going to forego the second to last story just because of time.
Riley Bowman: And because we've been keeping people waiting on hearing our take on this in
Riley Bowman: and out shooting in Idaho.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: And that is really the big story of the day. It's a huge story.
Riley Bowman: And it's one that's still being investigated. And there's still going to be
Riley Bowman: probably details that have yet to come out that really need to come out.
Riley Bowman: But it has been long enough. I think it's fair enough to comment,
Riley Bowman: at least about what we do know at this point about it and to share it.
Riley Bowman: And chances are, if you're watching or listening to this podcast,
Riley Bowman: you're probably already familiar with this incident.
Riley Bowman: So the details you may already be fairly familiar with. But let's just rehash
Riley Bowman: it really quick. And first, there's a little bit of a personal connection for
Riley Bowman: me because this happened in Twin Falls, Idaho.
Riley Bowman: I'm the Idaho boy. You're the Wyoming kid.
Riley Bowman: And I'm not from the Twin Falls area, although it's not that far.
Riley Bowman: It's like two and a half hours from where I grew up.
Jacob Paulsen: Sure. That's a pretty spot.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, it is. I mean, just north of Twin Falls is Snake River Canyon or Gorge.
Riley Bowman: It's a really impressive sight to behold.
Riley Bowman: There's a bridge. It's called Perrin Bridge. You drive across this bridge.
Riley Bowman: If you're coming from the interstate, you drive across Perrin Bridge to get
Riley Bowman: across into actual Twin Falls. And...
Riley Bowman: That bridge is super famous, like tons of daredevil types jump off of it,
Riley Bowman: you know, base jump, all that.
Riley Bowman: Evil Knievel tried to jump himself
Riley Bowman: in a car across that gorge back like 50 years ago, you know, and so.
Jacob Paulsen: It's gorgeous.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, it's a pretty cool spot.
Jacob Paulsen: It's big.
Riley Bowman: In 2005, I asked my wife to marry me on the center of that bridge.
Jacob Paulsen: No kidding.
Riley Bowman: At sunset.
Jacob Paulsen: Wow, okay. Yeah. Riley's a romantic. I don't know what to tell you.
Jacob Paulsen: But yeah, to your point, this is an area you know well.
Riley Bowman: I know it. And in fact, was there not that long ago because just a little more
Riley Bowman: than a year ago, we stopped there as part of a family trip. We wanted our kids to see...
Riley Bowman: We wanted to share with them that moment where I asked my wife to marry me.
Riley Bowman: In fact, we happened to be able to stop there really close to sunset and go
Riley Bowman: out into the middle of that bridge and watch sunset over that canyon.
Jacob Paulsen: Man, what a romantic going back to the scene.
Riley Bowman: The exact same way it happened when I asked her to marry me.
Jacob Paulsen: That's cool.
Riley Bowman: This was just like a year, year and a half ago.
Jacob Paulsen: Two summers ago, I ate at the Noodles & Company that's down the road from this In-N-Out.
Riley Bowman: There you go.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, I was coming back from Boise. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah.
Riley Bowman: So, anyway, kind of hits close to home. And, in fact, I think they were maybe
Riley Bowman: just starting to build this In-N-Out location when I was there the last time.
Riley Bowman: I remember there being some construction there. It's on the corner near the
Riley Bowman: visitor center to this bridge. But, anyway.
Jacob Paulsen: But, yeah, the noodles are companies there. So, you really have no reason to
Jacob Paulsen: go to an In-N-Out. Yeah. Continue.
Riley Bowman: So this In-N-Out just opened basically a week before this thing happened,
Riley Bowman: before this incident happened.
Riley Bowman: And anyone that knows an In-N-Out grand opening, it's a crazy thing.
Riley Bowman: They just, you know, a couple years ago had an In-N-Out open up near where I live.
Riley Bowman: And, you know, they had to have special traffic control, you know,
Riley Bowman: because cars are lined up around the block, you know, waiting to go through
Riley Bowman: there, waiting for hours. That's the thing I don't get, Jacob.
Jacob Paulsen: Well, animal styles would change your life.
Riley Bowman: You can't get me to wait for hours to eat anywhere. It does not matter.
Jacob Paulsen: So anyway. You know, there are some barbecue places in this country,
Jacob Paulsen: like real famous ones, like Texas, like only open on Saturday.
Jacob Paulsen: Have to be there by 5 a.m. if you want to get a meal by 11 a.m. I'd wait for those.
Riley Bowman: Maybe.
Jacob Paulsen: But not in and out.
Riley Bowman: Maybe. Yeah.
Riley Bowman: So anyway, August 1st, Saturday, last week, the perpetrator is 24 years old.
Riley Bowman: Apparently he drove, he was in the drive-through lane himself, as far as we gather.
Riley Bowman: You know, video that was captured shows him going back into a white vehicle
Riley Bowman: and opening the trunk. And I presume that he would not have been opening the
Riley Bowman: trunk if he wasn't familiar with that vehicle.
Riley Bowman: Uh and it seemed watching that like he was going to get something else out more
Riley Bowman: ammo a different gun i don't know uh which he apparently wasn't successful in
Riley Bowman: doing that at least that we saw in the video.
Riley Bowman: But he actually started the shooting inside the In-N-Out.
Riley Bowman: People scatter. They run away. He then goes outside, starts shooting at people
Riley Bowman: and passing cars and shooting at cars that are parked in the lot.
Riley Bowman: It's well known that there were a couple of Teslas parked there charging,
Riley Bowman: and he fired into those vehicles.
Riley Bowman: There's a lot of conflicting information or at least confusing information or
Riley Bowman: information that sounds like,
Riley Bowman: for instance, We know one of the injured victims, Jacob, was a man who is like
Riley Bowman: an Uber driver, and he drove a Tesla, and that he was parked there,
Riley Bowman: presumably charging his car,
Riley Bowman: and he gets wounded.
Riley Bowman: So he's in his, and I think it did happen, I think he got shot outside of his
Riley Bowman: car, but his car was parked right there.
Riley Bowman: And yet we have video showing this guy shooting into the windshield of another
Riley Bowman: vehicle, and we know that in one of those vehicles was also somebody who was
Riley Bowman: shot and killed. So it sounds like there's a couple of Teslas that have victims,
Riley Bowman: unfortunately, associated with them.
Riley Bowman: The unique thing about the Teslas is if they're plugged in charging, they can't just leave.
Riley Bowman: You have to manually get out and unplug the Tesla before the Tesla will actually
Riley Bowman: let you drive away. That's a safety feature so people aren't driving off and
Riley Bowman: ripping electrical cords out of chargers and stuff.
Jacob Paulsen: Seems reasonable.
Riley Bowman: So, shoots and kills three people, wounds I think seven others.
Riley Bowman: And all in the space of just a few minutes. And, of course, what we know as
Riley Bowman: of right now, what's being reported is now famous Jordan Salinas.
Riley Bowman: He's the civilian that chose to engage the shooter, famously with a 5.7 FN 5.7
Riley Bowman: pistol with a suppressor on it.
Jacob Paulsen: In a shoulder holster.
Riley Bowman: In a shoulder, out of a shoulder holster. We'll talk about that.
Riley Bowman: An off-duty police officer, I think State Trooper, was also involved.
Riley Bowman: But then there's talk about, and he's also one of the injured,
Riley Bowman: not the off-duty trooper, but a former police officer who confronted the shooter and did so unarmed.
Riley Bowman: Even though he was carrying a gun, he talked, his name is Austin James.
Riley Bowman: He expressed concern of being mistaken, you know, in this active shooting event.
Riley Bowman: And he therefore didn't draw his gun. It sounded like he rounded the corner
Riley Bowman: of the building or something and then was face-to-face with the shooter and
Riley Bowman: got himself shot and was unable to defend himself because he had chosen not to draw out his gun.
Riley Bowman: Anyway, a very chaotic event. What police have stated is that the actions of
Riley Bowman: the off-duty trooper and Jordan Salinas returning fire likely
Riley Bowman: was a factor in driving away the shooter away from the incident and eventually
Riley Bowman: led to him committing suicide,
Riley Bowman: a short time after that.
Riley Bowman: Anything else relevant detail-wise?
Jacob Paulsen: Uh, the off-duty trooper who engaged the shooter, uh, they said did so from inside the restaurant.
Riley Bowman: Okay.
Jacob Paulsen: Um, and I, and, uh, uh, our good guy Samaritan did so from outside the restaurant.
Jacob Paulsen: So, you know, it's the, some of the timeline related elements there are unclear
Jacob Paulsen: to me and maybe one day we'll find out.
Jacob Paulsen: Uh, but you know, maybe, maybe what drives the shooter outside is that someone
Jacob Paulsen: inside is shooting at him.
Jacob Paulsen: So maybe he goes outside and that's maybe when he can, you know,
Jacob Paulsen: is confronted by another defender who's shooting at him.
Jacob Paulsen: I think, yeah, as far as the narrative, I think that roughly covers it up.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Okay.
Jacob Paulsen: To clarify, he did not, because you said he committed suicide,
Jacob Paulsen: he didn't go very far. He basically retreated from the in and out into a different
Jacob Paulsen: section of the parking lot of the general business area, and that's where he ended his life.
Riley Bowman: And no word about if he was hit by any of the rounds, fired by these responding,
Riley Bowman: these other shooters that tried to take action.
Riley Bowman: But that's actually not really relevant. If they manage to distract the shooter,
Riley Bowman: keep him from achieving his goals, whatever they were, take his focus away from finding victims.
Riley Bowman: Because, I mean, the way this is going to go is once he's started the shooting
Riley Bowman: and people start scattering, then it becomes essentially a hunt, right?
Riley Bowman: Now he's like, okay, where's my next victim? Where's my next victim?
Riley Bowman: It's hard to do that when you're trying to dodge bullets coming your way because
Riley Bowman: bullets are now going both ways.
Riley Bowman: So these guys that stepped in and tried to do something about it,
Riley Bowman: whether they landed around or not, this is my first analysis point,
Riley Bowman: Jacob, is that they made a difference in the outcome of this whole thing.
Jacob Paulsen: Active shooters are cowards, and both from a logical perspective,
Jacob Paulsen: but more importantly, like from the data of this.
Jacob Paulsen: Ed Monk just reminded us of this in the webinar he did last month,
Jacob Paulsen: which is in Guardian University, if people haven't seen it.
Jacob Paulsen: The data is really clear. The number one way to end an attack immediately is
Jacob Paulsen: to send bullets, like, to confront them.
Jacob Paulsen: It doesn't matter if you hit them. Like, these kind of aggressors are cowards.
Jacob Paulsen: The second they meet opposition, they end it.
Jacob Paulsen: It's just the way it works. Either they end it by taking their own lives or they surrender.
Jacob Paulsen: It's just consistent. Like this is one of those like 98% of the time kind of statistics.
Jacob Paulsen: So opposition is all it takes to end these attacks.
Jacob Paulsen: So yeah, I mean, I don't know if he shot him, if shots landed and this guy was
Jacob Paulsen: bleeding out or I don't know.
Jacob Paulsen: But what's clear is that he stopped shooting other people the second he met armed opposition. Yep.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. And so huge, huge, huge props to Jordan Salinas.
Riley Bowman: Who's, of course, the famous citizen, civilian shooter dude,
Riley Bowman: the off-duty trooper that was involved as well, and also Austin James,
Riley Bowman: who is the man that attempted to engage the shooter without drawing his gun,
Riley Bowman: because I think all three of these men made a difference in the outcome and
Riley Bowman: saved lives in this situation.
Riley Bowman: Going back to the Ed Monk webinar, Jacob, guys, you really should go watch that, by the way.
Riley Bowman: There's a lot of, I mean, how timely that, it could not have been more timely
Riley Bowman: to have that webinar with Ed, just really a few weeks ago before this thing
Riley Bowman: happened here, because so many lessons to be taken away from that.
Riley Bowman: And to your point, you just talked about, like what I got the most out of that webinar,
Riley Bowman: and from watching Ed present other times too, like at TAC Conrader this year,
Riley Bowman: is that an active shooter event,
Riley Bowman: It's all about the time.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, that's the reason his book is called First 30 Seconds.
Riley Bowman: First 30 Seconds, right? As soon as that first shot's fired,
Riley Bowman: the clock is running, okay?
Riley Bowman: And, I mean, the thinking is that every minute on average, right? Yep. One person dead.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. And obviously over time, the number of people per minute that died decreases.
Jacob Paulsen: But, yeah, like for all intents and purposes.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. The averages per minute of an active shooter event, that equals one death,
Riley Bowman: over all the data, all the different shootings have happened.
Riley Bowman: And so the number one thing is, you just said, Jacob, that needs to happen is
Riley Bowman: something has to counter the carnage,
Riley Bowman: the violence, the actions that these cowardly shooters are taking.
Riley Bowman: And the sooner that happens, the sooner we actually save lives.
Jacob Paulsen: Even the injured people Seven injured people that could have all Bled out and
Jacob Paulsen: died, I mean I don't know how many of them had Vital wounds,
Jacob Paulsen: but that's when we End the attack that allows medical Personnel to get on scene
Jacob Paulsen: and start Saving lives as well So even
Jacob Paulsen: Outside of the ten people who were Shot, three dead, seven injured You have
Jacob Paulsen: to consider that seven injured Is seven injured because The speed at which we're
Jacob Paulsen: able to get Medical personnel to them
Riley Bowman: Speaking of Austin James, the former police officer, he was shot in the humerus.
Riley Bowman: That's your main arm bone.
Riley Bowman: And it said he had an arterial bleed. It severed his artery,
Riley Bowman: presumably his brachial artery, right?
Riley Bowman: Which would be just on the inside of that humerus.
Riley Bowman: His wife, who is an ER nurse, fortunate for him, and a friend that was apparently
Riley Bowman: with them, who was also an ER nurse, went to work on him. They probably couldn't
Riley Bowman: have done that until the situation was over.
Riley Bowman: And he was losing blood fast. They talked about how they had to apply a tourniquet to him.
Jacob Paulsen: That's a one to three minute dead scenario.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, I mean, so that's perfect point, Jacob, that the time matters,
Riley Bowman: not just in terms of actual people getting shot, but those that are,
Riley Bowman: I mean, yeah, they're obviously shot, but you know what I mean?
Riley Bowman: People dying, but also people may die further if we don't get it ended soon
Riley Bowman: enough that we can get folks to the hospital that need to get to the hospital.
Riley Bowman: That guy, Austin James, was definitely one of those that needed to get to hospital ASAP.
Riley Bowman: So yeah, really sad, tragic event.
Riley Bowman: Uh, of course we don't, none of us like seeing these sorts of things happen,
Riley Bowman: no matter where they happen, how they happen, when they happen.
Riley Bowman: Um, but I think it would have been worse if there hadn't been multiple people
Riley Bowman: in the area, Jacob, that were willing to take action and were armed.
Riley Bowman: And I think if you're going to try to commit a mass shooting,
Riley Bowman: uh, there's better places as far as targets to choose in Twin Falls, Idaho.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly what I'm just thinking, right?
Jacob Paulsen: Like the meme that's flying around the internet is something like,
Jacob Paulsen: you know, Idaho, we shoot back kind of thing.
Jacob Paulsen: Like there's so many places you could, okay, we should not advise mass killers
Jacob Paulsen: on this podcast, but that was a poor choice of venue.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. So, and we don't know what his intents were or his purposes were and his motives.
Riley Bowman: Maybe he achieved exactly what he wanted to achieve. He just wanted to create
Riley Bowman: whatever carnage he could. I don't know.
Riley Bowman: But generally these guys, like they want to give. They want fame.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, they want to get that kill count as high as they can.
Riley Bowman: And it's going to be hard to do that if people can actually defend themselves
Riley Bowman: and are willing to defend themselves.
Riley Bowman: And so, yeah, that's how this one went down.
Jacob Paulsen: And despite my comments about not liking In-N-Out Burger, I just want to be
Jacob Paulsen: clear that that's not the kind of thing that we settle with violence.
Riley Bowman: Oh, yeah. Jeez. Yeah, of course not. All right.
Jacob Paulsen: On a more serious tone, there's a lot of commentary right now running around
Jacob Paulsen: the internet about this man's choice of loadout, right?
Jacob Paulsen: He's carrying an unusual caliber and gun with a suppressor, which is very unusual,
Jacob Paulsen: and in an unusual kind of holster.
Jacob Paulsen: It's not uncommon in scenarios like this where we have big mass shootings and
Jacob Paulsen: someone comes to rescue that we end up hearing a lot from that person in the end.
Jacob Paulsen: They're going to be interviewed. Media is going to do stories.
Jacob Paulsen: We learned a lot about our rescuer in the Sutherland Springs.
Jacob Paulsen: Sutherland Springs, yeah. Thank you. Sutherland Springs, Texas, shooting. Wilford.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, Stephen Wilford. Elijah Dickens. We've heard things from him.
Jacob Paulsen: So that's not totally out of the ordinary, but there are a couple things that
Jacob Paulsen: stand out about this particular defender.
Jacob Paulsen: One, again, the caliber and carry and things like that, but also this is a person who trained a lot.
Jacob Paulsen: This is a person who is highly competent,
Jacob Paulsen: like a you or a me. Someone in our community that goes to classes and goes to
Jacob Paulsen: the range often. That's what you get from this guy.
Riley Bowman: We don't know how much like professional level training he's done,
Riley Bowman: but he has a YouTube channel and a social media, you know, a couple of social
Riley Bowman: media accounts where he was posting kind of training like content.
Riley Bowman: Like I go to the range. This is what I was doing. This is what I was working on today kind of stuff.
Riley Bowman: And he said in one of his interviews how,
Riley Bowman: he was inspired to get more serious about practicing and training and preparing
Riley Bowman: himself from a shooting that happened in Boise back in 2021 that was another active shooter event.
Riley Bowman: And that kind of got his wheels and gears turning and going,
Riley Bowman: okay, you know, like, you know, this, and I think that's kind of how this sort
Riley Bowman: of thing happens for a lot of people.
Riley Bowman: Something happens kind of close to you or somewhere where you kind of feel connected
Riley Bowman: to it and it just, Hey, that means it could have happened maybe to me.
Riley Bowman: And so Jordan started really getting after it and practicing and training. Um,
Riley Bowman: Here would be my caution. Obviously, everyone needs training.
Riley Bowman: We should be training no matter what. We should be practicing.
Riley Bowman: We should be preparing ourselves because we just never know when that time can
Riley Bowman: come, whether it's a mass shooting,
Riley Bowman: or it's defending ourselves at the gas station or it's a road rage situation
Riley Bowman: like we started talking about in the beginning of this episode or a break into your home.
Riley Bowman: So training is key and practice is super important to make sure those skills
Riley Bowman: are sharp and honed and kept up to par.
Riley Bowman: But my bigger concern with everything I've been seeing surrounding this story,
Riley Bowman: Jacob, is a lot of people really curious about his choice of equipment,
Riley Bowman: And I know that's kind of a fascinating thing in a world where it's kind of,
Riley Bowman: gear-centric. You know, guns and gear and all that is stuff that gun guys and
Riley Bowman: gals are really interested in.
Riley Bowman: But I've been seeing reports that 5.7s and 5.7-chambered guns have been flying off the shelves.
Riley Bowman: And people asking questions about, I'm wondering about how I can carry my gun
Riley Bowman: too with a suppressor on it.
Riley Bowman: That stuff is irrelevant.
Riley Bowman: And I think it's kind of, it's very interesting to me that that's where people's
Riley Bowman: minds go is, well, the hero of the in-and-out shooting was using a
Riley Bowman: FN-57 with a suppressor on it, so that's what I'm going to use too, because that's a proven,
Riley Bowman: tool. And that's the wrong way to look at it.
Jacob Paulsen: It's also factually incorrect. I mean, there's no evidence that the tool or
Jacob Paulsen: ammo he carried had any impact whatsoever on the outcome of this event.
Riley Bowman: Right, right. Like, yeah, we, we, there's no report that he landed any rounds.
Jacob Paulsen: So I'm not saying it's good. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying there's
Jacob Paulsen: no data that supports it was good. Yeah.
Riley Bowman: And there's another point to that, actually, Jacob, that there's been people
Riley Bowman: that have criticized him, uh,
Riley Bowman: you know, as far as like, well, he didn't get any rounds on target,
Riley Bowman: you know, and that's the wrong thing to be doing here too, folks,
Riley Bowman: because one, he was willing to step up when few were, or at least were able to do so.
Riley Bowman: Uh and and and that's just that's just a really that's that's a that's a shot
Riley Bowman: below the belt okay it's it's uncalled for and it it actually is just a poor
Riley Bowman: fallacy and argument well.
Jacob Paulsen: And currently unknown i might add like we don't know that he got shot yeah
Riley Bowman: Yeah that's that's also very true um but uh,
Riley Bowman: You know, you should be carrying and using the tool that suits your purposes
Riley Bowman: for you the best and that you know how to use and that you are competent and skilled in using.
Riley Bowman: And I'll tell you the tool, like
Riley Bowman: the specific tool, and we've tested this across a lot of different guns.
Riley Bowman: And I've seen a lot of different things with different shooters over the years
Riley Bowman: with different guns and equipment too.
Riley Bowman: The tool matters far less than you think it does, as long as it's effective,
Riley Bowman: meaning that it fires a round that can get the job done.
Riley Bowman: That it's reliable so that it's going to work when you need it to,
Riley Bowman: and then it will continue to work when you need it to.
Riley Bowman: And that you can deploy it and put it to use effectively and quickly and efficiently.
Riley Bowman: Like, that's all the tool matters.
Riley Bowman: The rest of it is all dependent on you.
Riley Bowman: And so rather than getting on the next crazy fad, you know, whatever thing,
Riley Bowman: well, I'm going to go buy a 5.7 now,
Riley Bowman: that's less important than taking the tool you probably already own and use
Riley Bowman: and carry and finding ways to make yourself better with it. That's my take.
Jacob Paulsen: But also go buy a 5.7 because 5.7 is cool. I mean, if you don't already have
Jacob Paulsen: one, I mean, I think everyone should have a 5.7.
Riley Bowman: It's America. You're welcome.
Jacob Paulsen: I mean, at the same time, do you not own a shotgun yet?
Jacob Paulsen: You should probably own a shotgun or two or three. Buying more guns is more better.
Riley Bowman: Somebody just got his first lever action.
Jacob Paulsen: I did. I just got my first lever action rifle today. I'm super excited.
Jacob Paulsen: It was a gift. It's the first time anyone's ever bought me a gun. So thanks, bro.
Jacob Paulsen: But I think buying guns is always a good thing, is all I'm saying.
Jacob Paulsen: But yeah, if this is the motive, like, oh, clearly I need to be carrying a 5.7
Jacob Paulsen: or I need to be putting a suppressor on my gun, it's like...
Jacob Paulsen: A what?
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: I mean, suppressing the shots had no impact on the outcome of this event.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. So, I mean, and that's not any down to, you know, whatever the guy's name,
Jacob Paulsen: Justin or whatever it is.
Jacob Paulsen: Jordan. Yeah, Jordan, thank you. Like, it's cool, man. Carry what you want.
Jacob Paulsen: Like, all good. Like, I'm happy for you.
Jacob Paulsen: I mean, if you stopped to put a suppressor on that gun before you engaged, now I'm pissed off.
Jacob Paulsen: But if you're really carrying it with suppressed in a shoulder holster,
Jacob Paulsen: like, that's cool, man. That's your jam.
Riley Bowman: And that's the thing. That's what's apparent from this whole thing.
Riley Bowman: Because he posted content about it.
Riley Bowman: That's the tool that for whatever reason he chose to use and carry. And he practiced with.
Riley Bowman: So that was his thing. And he practiced with it. And as far as we know, effective.
Riley Bowman: And we don't know the context too of, well, he didn't land any hits.
Riley Bowman: Well, how far was he trying to shoot? We don't know how far it was to the bad guy.
Riley Bowman: We don't know if that bad guy was partially obscured or behind cover to some degree.
Riley Bowman: There's all kinds of factors as to why he might not have hit him.
Riley Bowman: Or we may find out in the end, like you said a second ago, Jacob,
Riley Bowman: that maybe he actually did get hits on him.
Riley Bowman: They just didn't kill him right away. It's too early. And then he committed suicide.
Jacob Paulsen: This event took place like six days ago from when we're recording this.
Jacob Paulsen: So, you know, there's just more info will come. Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: We just, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Riley Bowman: Sorry. All right. Well, it's over time, and so we'll wrap it up,
Riley Bowman: and I suspect we'll probably talk about this incident some more down the road,
Riley Bowman: especially if more has learned about it.
Riley Bowman: That's significant, and I think this is a significant event overall,
Riley Bowman: and kind of the overall picture, the history of everything to do with firearms
Riley Bowman: and personal defense and the Second Amendment because this shows –,
Riley Bowman: Absolute positive and essential nature and argument for the Second Amendment
Riley Bowman: that regular men and women can and should be their own first responders.
Jacob Paulsen: They must be.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. And so, yeah.
Riley Bowman: Because imagine if this happened and this was in a, let's just say it was a
Riley Bowman: jurisdiction where Jordan Salinas and Austin James and others couldn't be armed.
Riley Bowman: Then the killing would have just continued until law enforcement responded I'd
Riley Bowman: be curious to know what the first law enforcement response on scene would be time wise I don't know,
Riley Bowman: we know on average nationwide LE response is somewhere in the 15 minute range
Riley Bowman: and for active shootings it's 7 to 10 so anyway,
Riley Bowman: Well, we'll wrap it up. Oh, we didn't actually, I apologize.
Riley Bowman: I skipped over the second sponsor read I had in my notes.
Riley Bowman: Mentioned at the beginning of the episode, this episode is sponsored by HK.
Riley Bowman: But guys, we just talked about how the equipment doesn't matter, and it doesn't.
Riley Bowman: But what does matter is that you choose good equipment and good quality equipment
Riley Bowman: and equipment that you know will work.
Riley Bowman: And our choice for our personal defense guns are HKs.
Jacob Paulsen: Wait, can I get an HK in 5.7? No. Okay.
Riley Bowman: You can get one in 4.6.
Jacob Paulsen: That's true. Yeah.
Riley Bowman: You can get an MP7, I suppose.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a similar round.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, there you go.
Jacob Paulsen: That's fun. Let's do that. Let's get one of those. Sorry, sorry,
Jacob Paulsen: HK. I wasn't trying to be... I guess I was trying to be funny.
Riley Bowman: It was good. It was perfect. But we choose HK because they have a reputation
Riley Bowman: and a history known for reliability, durability, performance,
Riley Bowman: ruggedness, and quality.
Riley Bowman: I hope that you would choose them as well. Go to HK-USA.com to learn more.
Riley Bowman: Visit your local dealer and purchase an HK today. All right.
Riley Bowman: And at the beginning of the episode, we also mentioned our other sponsor of
Riley Bowman: this episode was CCW Safe.
Riley Bowman: And I did the sponsor read on them, but you can check them out at CCWSAFE.com.
Riley Bowman: Please support our sponsors that support us and make this possible in doing what we do.
Riley Bowman: We thank you for that support. And final words, Jacob? Anything? Nope.
Riley Bowman: So we'll leave you with a reminder to train right, train often, and train safe.
Jacob Paulsen: So you can fight hard, fight fast, and fight true. Take care. Take care.
Riley Bowman: A reminder that laws vary from place to place, and we encourage listeners to
Riley Bowman: seek local legal advice to understand applicable laws.
Riley Bowman: Concealed Carry, Inc., its brands and properties, and the Concealed Carry podcast
Riley Bowman: is not a legal service, nor are we attorneys at law.
Riley Bowman: We make our best-fade effort to share Concealed Carry-related insights and information
Riley Bowman: about firearm-related incidents and the laws pertaining, based on our own understanding and experience.
Riley Bowman: But things can be different where you live, or laws may have changed by the
Riley Bowman: time you listen to this. We cannot be held liable for your actions based on
Riley Bowman: the information shared in this podcast.
Riley Bowman: Please exercise care with all things pertaining to firearm use,
Riley Bowman: Concealed Carry, and always practice following basic firearm safety rules.
Riley Bowman: More information about safety can be found at concealedcarry.com forward slash safety.